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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: Circumstantial VISUAL evidence (in the Sent Vid) that the REF encountered the Regis before Earth?
Started on: June 1, 2002 - 2:19:32 AM
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See it here,
http://www.robotech.com/gallery/mmitem.php?filetype=MOV&id=109
Or in the opening credits for Robotech II: The "Sentinels (Video)" included with Robotech Legacy DVD Box Set 3 on the 3rd Robotech Extras DVD.
It's the visual sequence right after the "The Sentinels" subtitle...
This sequence appears to suggest an Invid being destroyed by a REF pilot wearing the Sentinels Video (Jack Baker's) style helmet (circa 2023) which had changed to TNG(Mospeada) style helmets by the time the Regis invaded Earth in 2030/31. It is followed by additional footage of Alphas firing on an Invid Shock Trooper (also in the opening credits of the original Robotech Tv Series).
Then this sequence depicts the Regis phoenix in the presence of Alphas and a Beta. Since this is obviously a different departure than either the one from Optera [in "The Invid Invasion"] or the one from Earth at the end of TNG(Mospeada) [in "Symphony Of Light"], it seems to suggest that the REF (or at the very least possibly a recon force from it) encountered the Regis before she arrived on Earth in 2030/31.
A capture from this sequence showing the Regis phoenix through an Alpha while a(n) (Alpha/)Beta approaches,
http://www.robotech.com/images/content/GIM_16_2_9509.jpg
Some additional captures from this sequence,
http://www.geocities.com/rtsurfer/REF_Regis.htm
So does the presence of an (Alpha?) pilot wearing a circa 2023 REF helmet during a depiction of REF against Invid combat, followed by Alphas and a Beta witnessing the Regis phoenix from beneath the surface of a planet equate to contact with the Regis and (her) Invid before she invaded Earth in 2030/31? | |
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Vanger
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: I disagree.
Posted on: June 1, 2002 - 7:16:48 AM
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The opening/closing credits pulled cutscenes from the entire series.
One saw the exact same phoenix & Mecha as well as hints of SC in the first broadcast episode of the Macross series forward.
That's just the same series of animation that prefaced & followed every episode. Including the battle scene from Macross that shows an Orguss in the background.
By your reasoning I could argue that Super Dimension Century Orguss ties into RT somehow as well.
Find someone with the old Palladium tapes & watch the credits. | |
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Geezer Team #0 - Intelligence
Old Guardsman
Alleged Historian of the Lounge
You mean sneaking around, placing spies, starting conspiracies?
I'm in INTEL, it's my *job*!
Caveat Inimicus! (Let my ENEMY beware) | | | |
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pwwalker
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: Dana flies! It's in the credits!
Posted on: June 3, 2002 - 6:13:02 AM
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Just kidding, of course.
(And no, Vanger, it isn't an Orguss, it's a Valk in super armor designed to make it look like an Orguss. Look closely, you'll see what I mean).
I don't know that we can make much of the Sentinels opening/closing credits, since the Sentinels are themselves not canonical.
But it is quite clear from the dialogue of the original show that the REF had encountered the Invid prior to the REF's return to Earth - just not before the end of the 2nd Robotech War. And since there's a decade in between, that's plenty of time for contact. | |
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So we'll put up with the jokes and the hateful stares for this noise that would curdle stones
"Band! By the right!" and we're heroes again
As the pipes begin to drone...
---Wolf Loescher, Amazing Grace Again | | | |
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lenec
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: Explain
Posted on: June 3, 2002 - 10:01:22 AM
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Mr. Commander please explain to me why the Sentinels are not canonical, Im kinda new here. | |
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Koncept the Bombthreat
Rank: Private
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Subject: Are you sure?
Posted on: June 3, 2002 - 10:54:55 AM
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But it is quite clear from the dialogue of the original show that the REF had encountered the Invid prior to the REF's return to Earth - just not before the end of the 2nd Robotech War. And since there's a decade in between, that's plenty of time for contact.
I think the case for the 2042 and delay of the Sentinels needs to be made stronger. It's a good idea, but reading some of these old discussions that other participants have put up don't you think it's necessary to find either some other cues besides Leonard's quote, the Eulogy seen, and the narration at the beginning of "The Invid Invasion" or argue that any other timeline conception would be impractical? | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 4, 2002 - 4:07:48 AM
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One saw the exact same phoenix & Mecha as well as hints of SC in the first broadcast episode of the Macross series forward.
That's just the same series of animation that prefaced & followed every episode...
Are you sure? You might want to rewatch the opening and closing credits for the Robotech Tv Series (as it originally aired).
Opening credits for the Robotech Tv Series,
http://www.robotech.com/gallery/mmitem.php?filetype=MOV&id=105
[Sorry, I don't believe the closing credits are online. Maybe RT.com will add them to the gallery?]
SOME of the sequence I discussed in my original post was part of the Robotech Tv Series' opening and closing credits. I don't believe I ever said it wasn't.
Mr. Commander please explain to me why the Sentinels are not canonical, Im kinda new here.
I'm not a Commander but here's what Commander Tom Bateman wrote,
Commander speaks...
The ONLY official canon is the 85-episode ROBOTECH television show itself that was broadcast. Everything else is secondary.
I don't want to come down hard on anyone who likes the comics or the novels, but since they are sometimes inconsistent with eachother and with events of the show as presented in the original series. We don't want to point to anything other than the series as being "definitive".
For now, the novels and comics are "official" but not necessarily "canon".
Any new ANIMATED production would supercede any story that may have been told in comic, book or even video form.
Tom Bateman
ROBOTECH.COM
I don't know that we can make much of the Sentinels opening/closing credits, since the Sentinels are themselves not canonical.
pwwalker previously wrote,
The way we were told to treat the Sentinels video in the infopedia entries (inc. the timeline) was that we were not to include the Sentinels Video, but neither were we to contradict it...
But it is quite clear from the dialogue of the original show that the REF had encountered the Invid prior to the REF's return to Earth - just not before the end of the 2nd Robotech War. And since there's a decade in between, that's plenty of time for contact.
Have I ever said that a long occupation of Earth by the Invid wasn't possible? On the contrary, I believe I've stated more than once that the evidence from the tv series can be reasonably argued for Scott's arrival on Earth from about 2034 to the early 2050's.
Back to my original question about this Sentinels Video opening credits' sequence,
So does the presence of an (Alpha?) pilot wearing a circa 2023 REF helmet during a depiction of REF against Invid combat, followed by Alphas and a Beta witnessing the Regis phoenix from beneath the surface of a planet equate to CONTACT with the Regis and (her) Invid BEFORE she invaded Earth in 2030/31?
When it's considered with the events depicted during the Sentinels Video itself (the REF preparing for a mission to Tirol which is being invaded by the Invid)... | |
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Yutz
Rank: Master Sergeant
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Subject: Time for the comic dude to come in.
Posted on: June 4, 2002 - 9:14:42 PM
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The way the Sentinels comics went was that the REF/Sentinels were contantly asking about the Regis, but never met her. She kept planet hopping from Optera, to Praxis, and finally Haydon IV. After the Sentinels reached Garuda (The third stop on their liberation campaign) Rick, Lisa, Karen, and Rem were exposed to Garuda's toxic atmosphere by the Invid. The Regent recognized Rem as a Zor clone, and sent him to the Regis on Haydon IV as a gift.
The Regis used a mind probe on Rem and discovered the location of his ship, and left for it right away. So by the time the Sentinels reached Haydon IV, the Regis had already left for Earth along with half of the Invid fleet.
So if you accept this storyline to be true, then the answer is no, the REF never once even laid eyes on the Regis. | |
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"I am pleased. You shall not die today."
- The Invid Regent | | | |
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alphavt
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: To Respond to the Original Question
Posted on: June 7, 2002 - 3:35:46 PM
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To respond to the original question about the Sentinels video opening: rtsurfer, I know exactly what you're talking about and was intrigued myself by it for some time.
The shots in question show an Alpha/Beta fighter watching a volcano or mountain explode in light, and the Regis leaving a planet while Alphas watch from space. I originally thought it was a bit of uncompleted Sentinels animation tacked on to the beginning. However, on a Genesis Climber Mospeada site I stumbled upon, I was shocked to see these shots among other images from the show.
It is my belief that the origin of these visuals was the opening credits of the original Mospeada. Not used in the original Robotech, Macek or whoever decided to spruce up the Sentinels introduction with their colorful visuals.
The matter in my opinion, ironically enough, is not one of storyline hints but of pragmatic usage of untapped animation sequences by the Robotech team! I belive Commander "Cyclone" or whatever the user name is might be able to confirm this with his extra interest/knowledge in original Mospeada. | |
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Been a long time. | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 10, 2002 - 3:06:14 AM
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Yutz, I don't believe the REF/Sentinels would have made direct contact with the Regis herself during the (unfinished) Sentinels Tv Series. However they may have had one (or more) close encounters with her and/or her forces - as suggested by the inclusion of the phoenix sequence we're discussing.
Such an encounter could imply that REF/Sentinel forces were operating within Invid [or whatever name(s) they were known to the REF/Sentinels by] occupied space before the Regis departs for Earth (in 2030/31). Furthermore, using the planned (but unfinished) Sentinels Tv Series as a guide, this encounter would have likely occurred before Wolfe's (departure and) arrival at Earth in 20(29/)30. Because his journey would've taken place after the REF/Sentinels had freed all of the Invid occupied Sentinel Worlds.
alphavt, you're correct about the origin of the Invid & Regis' phoenix footage. If I'm not mistaken the credits for the Robotech Tv Series was constructed using mostly footage from the original Japanese MACROSS, Southern Cross, & Mospeada credits. The Sentinel Video's credits uses some of the same footage as the credits for the Robotech Tv Series, but includes footage from the Sentinels Video itself, and additional previously unused footage from Mospeada (and Southern Cross?)' credits.
They may have used the additional Mospeada footage simply to spruce up the credits as you suggest. But why edit this particular footage into a sequence that would suggest (at least visual) contact (& combat) between the REF and Invid - WHILE the REF were still using the circa 2023 style REF flight helmets but BEFORE the Regis' Invid Invade Earth (in 2030/31)?
They could have used snippets of the footage as it was, like they did with the Robotech Tv Series' credits. Instead, they edit in a circa 2023 style REF flight helmet between 2 scenes of Alpha/Invid combat. 2 sequences that were originally not together, and if I'm not mistaken the circa 2023 style REF flight helmet is now where a TNG style helmet originally was.
And the Regis' phoenix sequence was originally divided into snippets with other Mospeada styled scenes in between.
Were these editing choices merely a coincidence or an orchestrated effort intended to reinforce the future plot elements [REF's journey to Tirol, and a confrontation with the Invid] implied in the Sentinels Video itself? | |
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Captain JLS
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: Ehhhhh ...
Posted on: June 12, 2002 - 11:39:06 PM
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The Sentinels opening sequence was, as far as I can tell, hastily assembled from whatever footage was laying about that could prove useful. Anything with actual strictly-Sentinels iconography (Inorganics, REF flightsuits, Sentinels-era characters) was merely footage lifted directly from the footage used to create the Sentinels video. (The REF pilot you refer to IS Jack Baker, as seen in the training sequence that immediately follows the Sentinels opening theme and animation.) The rest of the footage is reconstituted footage from the opening animation sequences to <B>Genesis Climber Mospeada</B> and <B>Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross</B>, since mecha from both were used in the Sentinels project. Clever integration of this footage was done a few times--for instance, a sequence which was originally Hovertanks marching towards Bioroids is edited in such a way to suggest that the approaching mecha were Invid Hellcats. However, I sincerely doubt there was any motive in the use of that particular Mospeada opening footage depicting the Invid Regis EXCEPT to use Mospeada opening footage in the Sentinels opening that did NOT have the Mospeada heroes in it.
Also, since opening footage does NOT necessarily reflect the actual content of the series (in the original Macross opening animation, the SDF-1 fires its main gun in space in cruiser mode, an event which NEVER occurs ONCE in the Macross TV series, for reasons we're ALL familiar with), even if pre-New Gen REF personnel are depicted observing the Regis, it means nothing as far as the actual Robotech storyline is concerned. | |
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ROBOBLOG III: THE ODYSSEY - Robotech News, Reviews, & Commentary: http://sdf5x.blogspot.com/
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MY PLACE @ MYSPACE: http://www.myspace.com/captainjls | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 14, 2002 - 6:59:24 AM
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Yep that's Cadet Jack Baker from the simulator. But why did they go through the trouble of finding a 2 second snippet of him that matches the targeting an Invid scout footage from the Mospeada credits and editing them together?
And why did they bother to edit the Regis' phoenix footage together? The sequence used in the Sentinels credits was 2 seperate snippets in the Mospeada credit. They could have just used the Regis erupting from the volcano/underground portion and it might resemble an "Alpha emerging from a volcano" as I believe the capture is labeled here at RT.com.
In fact if the Sentinels credits were hastily assembled why didn't they just reuse for the Alpha and Invid segments the Mospeada credits' footage (which doesn't show TNG characters or cyclones) that they had already used in Robotech's credits? There was also a tiny bit of Mospeada credits footage that would have fit that wasn't used with either the Robotech or Sentinels credits.
Or better yet why not just put in a couple of Bioroid vs Invid/inorganic snippets from the video itself?
And I hadn't realized that the Southern Cross battle footage used in the Sentinels credits was edited in a way that might suggest ground combat (by the REF) against the Invid inorganics. Thanks for pointing that out :O)
You're right credits don't always reflect actual content of a series. Like Zor and Dana flying in the Robotech Credits :O) But in this case well never know since the series wasn't finished.
Hey maybe I am making too much of it but it just seems like the creators of the Sentinels Video were trying to keep their vision for Sentinels alive at a time when they likely knew that this might/would probably be all of the Sentinels ever animated. | |
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