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shadowsengage
Rank: Private
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Subject: Cyclone Battle effectiveness
Started on: February 19, 2004 - 2:44:12 AM
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How defensive was the cyclone in battloid mode, did it have enough armament to hold out for the length of an entire battle. The Cyclone with the beam saber seems to have an advantage of not running out of ammunition. The battler with the rocket launcher only has four forearm missles. The cyclone seems more like a defensive weapon, one designed to help downed pilots, or to recon. | |
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Response 1 of 78  |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 19, 2004 - 4:39:28 AM
Edited on: February 19, 2004 - 4:42:25 AM
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did it have enough armament to hold out for the length of an entire battle.
When the ammo ran out, so did the battle for that particular soldier ... as in all armies today.
There were (energy) guns for the Cyclone but they weren't as effective as the missiles.
The Cyclone with the beam saber seems to have an advantage of not running out of ammunition.
There is no such thing as a beam saber in Robotech. And why should there be, "never bring a knife to a gun fight".
The battler with the rocket launcher only has four forearm missles.
And optional gun attachment.
The cyclone seems more like a defensive weapon, one designed to help downed pilots, or to recon.
It's still a whole lot better than nothing for the grunts. | |
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Vanger
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: Also
Posted on: February 19, 2004 - 7:07:25 AM
Edited on: February 19, 2004 - 7:08:57 AM
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Consider the acronym-title for the original animamation.
MOSPEADA -> Mission Oriented Soldier Protection Emergency Aviation Drive (dive?) Auto.
This implies that it was intended primarily as a better-than-walking backup vehicle for downed pilots, not a frontline combat Mecha.
Since the situation with the Invid during the Liberation of Earth gave most frontline mecha a low survivability, it pushed the little, mobile, & rather lightly armed Backup Mecha into the primary role. | |
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hpfabe
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: Agreed
Posted on: February 19, 2004 - 7:14:26 AM
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I agree that this is the role it played in the show. Basically, it was meant for protecting a downed pilot long enough to get away from the crash site. Due to the situation on Earth, those downed pilots found themselves using it as a standard piece of combat equipment in addition to a means of transportation. Just enough armor to protect a pilot from an initial wave of fire, and just enough ammo for him/her to shoot his/her way to safety and then make a run for it.
I don't know if you all want to discuss this here, or start a new thread, but I'd love to discuss it's effectiveness were it in a real-world situation. I personally feel that out of all the transforming mecha seen in Robotech, this is the most realistic as far as being actually useful. A vehicle mode to get the soldier to the battle, then armor and exoskeleton to improve combat effectiveness once there. | |
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marduk99
Rank: Sergeant
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Subject: P Thomassen ?
Posted on: February 19, 2004 - 10:18:08 AM
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"There is no such thing as a beam saber in Robotech."
True, they never appeared in the series, but are you saying that Lanser's cyclone doesn't have forearm blade weapons at all(as far as modern Robotech is concerned) or just that they can't be called "beam sabers"? | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 19, 2004 - 12:05:25 PM
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True, they never appeared in the series, but are you saying that Lanser's cyclone doesn't have forearm blade weapons at all(as far as modern Robotech is concerned) or just that they can't be called "beam sabers"?
There is an OSM entry for the VR-041 having two ceramic sword blades. Maybe he used them to chop firewood.
IMO we can infer from the amount of times Lancer used them as opposed to, say, his grenades or his rather useless hand-held weapons what the general thoughts were on using swords against plasma-firing war mecha.
Beam sabers are not in Robotech at all. | |
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marduk99
Rank: Sergeant
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Subject: firewood ?
Posted on: February 19, 2004 - 1:08:32 PM
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I don't know who wrote this in the infopedia
"Though lacking a specific anti-personnel firearm as part of its standard fixed weaponry, the -040 series is unique amongst its fellow Cyclones with its distinctive ceramic blades fitted to the forearm guard front wheel covers. The strong, lightweight sabers were developed to pierce Invid armor and hive walls, but are also incredibly lethal weapons in close combat."
but the guy seemed to have more than "chopping fire wood" in mind. 
By the way I do agree that based of the series itself the forearm blades were probably useless against invid, but IMHO, I do believe the cyclone does have blades, just not "beam sabers", to use shadowsengage's term. | |
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Lard is all!
Lard is devine!
Lard is in control
Lard whips and chains our souls.
We carry credit cards
We live in fear of art
Lard is the OM
Lard is revolution | | | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 19, 2004 - 3:00:02 PM
Edited on: February 19, 2004 - 3:01:47 PM
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but the guy seemed to have more than "chopping fire wood" in mind.
Lancer apparently knew better as he always shoots at Invid rather than walk up to them with his swords  . | |
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marduk99
Rank: Sergeant
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Subject: I "wood" too
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 5:28:21 AM
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That is shoot at one, as opposed to walking up to one.
Now that I think about it, IIRC, there is a scene where either Scott or Rand is jumping around and on top of an invid Trooper, but do we ever see Lancer jump on top of an invid? | |
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Lard is all!
Lard is devine!
Lard is in control
Lard whips and chains our souls.
We carry credit cards
We live in fear of art
Lard is the OM
Lard is revolution | | | |
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hpfabe
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 7:39:45 AM
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I would think of those as being a sort of backup weapon, in case you run out of ammo and there's an Invid soldier, well, literally, on top of you.
I would think it would make sense for every cyclone to have this as a backup weapon, like real-life soldiers carry a knife with them, just in case, though most will never use it (then again, there has been plenty of bayonet usage, even recently in low visibility).
In the series... I think it's just there because it's kind of cool. | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 10:36:41 AM
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I would think of those as being a sort of backup weapon, in case you run out of ammo and there's an Invid soldier, well, literally, on top of you.
Wouldn't you rather use two rare hardpoints on the Cyclone for more ammo or missiles rather than swords?
I would think it would make sense for every cyclone to have this as a backup weapon, like real-life soldiers carry a knife with them
I can't disagree more. The two hardpoints could mount a gun, or four more missiles, weapons that would get far more work-outs and kills than the swords.
It's like making a soldier pack a sword/knife, but to hang it on him he has to ditch his rifle for a pistol and lose half his ammunition! | |
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hpfabe
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: Nope
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 11:39:41 AM
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Looking at the design, I see no reason why you couldn't mount an additional weapon outside of those.
Now, if weight considerations come into play, then maybe one arm with long range, one with the blade. I think, considering when the cyclone was presumably designed to be used (after a crash, in hostile territory), you want to account for running out of ammo and still having to continue fighting.
Hardpoints are great in roleplaying games or on fighter aircraft, but I don't think it applies as much to what we're discussing. | |
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tfitch74
Rank: Master Sergeant
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Subject: Stealth
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 12:11:19 PM
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Maybe the reason they existed at all was as the RPG stated for stealth reasons. Every other weapon made a great deal of noise. If you needed to sneak in somewhere, the blades would be the way to go. In a regular front-line battle though I think they would be rather useless. I would assume that this particular model was not used the same was as the regular cyclone as a backup to an Alpha fighter but had another purpose in mind from the outset. | |
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Somedays you're the pigeon, Somedays the statue... | | | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 5:05:32 PM
Edited on: February 20, 2004 - 5:11:29 PM
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Looking at the design, I see no reason why you couldn't mount an additional weapon outside of those.
The outer sword covers are slick and have no holding attachments whatsoever. You can't mount anything on the swords as depicted.
I think, considering when the cyclone was presumably designed to be used (after a crash, in hostile territory), you want to account for running out of ammo and still having to continue fighting.
Are you really going to devote kilos and an attachment point to a sword in a war where the mecha either have ranged weapons or, in the case of the Invid unarmed mecha, larger claws than you have swords?
Especially if you are a downed pilot: are we in the present expecting them to conduct guerilla warfare with knives against troops searching for them armed with guns?
Hardpoints are great in roleplaying games or on fighter aircraft, but I don't think it applies as much to what we're discussing.
As we can see in the -050 series of Cyclone, hardpoints applies there. The -050 series can mount armor plates, guns or missiles on the front wheels.
Every other weapon made a great deal of noise. If
you needed to sneak in somewhere, the blades would be the way to go.
But would you mount cutting tools standard on a Cyclone? And two of them, when one would suffice for that task?
The entry in the infopedia on the VR-041 suggests it is the primary combat model: "the -040 series Cyclone was designed to get its hands dirty in frontline heavy duty combat roles" | |
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breetai_tc
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 5:57:36 PM
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We may never see that particular model in "hand to hand" combat with the Invid. (even if you can call it that in regard to mecha)
We do see Scott leap on top of a Invid Trooper. It actually seemed like Scott was toying with them. We also see Rook I think do some kind of crazy Cyclone kick to an Invid trooper a couple of episodes later I believe.
I think that close encounters of the Invid kind most certainly exist in the show, but I do not see the need in having 2 swords.
But, thats the way it is it seems. Oh, and to penetrate armor those must be made out of some type of AWESOME material we haven't found/invented yet. | |
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"Get up! You ain't hurt" - Angelo Dante | | | |
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sleepy042
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: cyclone effectiveness
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 8:06:13 PM
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wow he pww havent seen you around in a while how's it going? while bernard calls the cyclone an emergency option in the series it is alot more than that. the cyclone effectively gives the avg infantry grunt alot more flexibility than he had before. the cyclone gives each grunt its own means of transportation & versatility. right now the military (speaking for the marine corps) is still trying to fulfill its goal of having a seat for every grunt to ride into battle on. given current funding & the fact that 5-ton trucks break down constantly this is easier said than done.
the cyclone also gives limited anti-air capabilities with the missile systems (modern day stinger systems) & anti-armor capability that todays SMAWS do. add in limited flight capability & you have a great weapons platform. The RT battlefield is very fluid & aerial oriented & the cyclone does help even the odds greatly. yeah the cads system (yes i use alot of palladium terms) is limited it does have some use. keep in mind they were probably designed with zentraedi in mind. how would you take a 50 ft giant down? i would start by shredding its achilles heel.
the cyclone would be as big as improvement to basic infantry as the Mongols use of the horse vs roman style infantry models. | |
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sleepy042
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: sorry
Posted on: February 20, 2004 - 8:07:22 PM
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p thomassen....sigh so very tired | |
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Your 20004 Robotech Fantasy Football Champion!!!!
Placed 2nd in the 2005 & 2008 Robotech Fantasy Football League!!!!
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NightLord14
Rank: Master Sergeant
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Subject: If I remember correctly
Posted on: February 21, 2004 - 8:07:25 AM
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When the blades were extended a force field covered the forarms making an inpentrable shield, also the blades were vibro blades meaning they vibrated very fast alowing them to cut through nearly anything.
I use to play the palladium system and what i had my character do is jump on the backs of the invid cut open the pannel they were inserted in, then it was opened for shooting or blade through the brain.
For the USAF teh survival experts when putting together the survival packs for pilots removed out some extra ammo to insert a better survival knife. Downed pilots are not supost to fight a battle with their survival gear they are suppose hide and as quickly as possiable make their way to an extraction point. If I were an REF pilot I would rather have the CADs rather then four missles. Every servival expert will tell you that a good knife will keep you alive longer than a gun or ammo will. | |
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tfitch74
Rank: Master Sergeant
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 21, 2004 - 8:22:13 AM
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Well if the infopedia says that they were frontline models there must have been tactics to go along with using these in that manner. Most likely used in a combined unit with other models. Either Lancer wasn't fully trained in these tactics being a pilot, not a foot soldier, or the situation that these would have been used in never occurred. In the original MOSPEADA did they ever get used?
Since this armor is powered, I am not sure how much the weight would have been an issue. Ceramic blades probably wouldn't way that much (at least as compared to some newer ceramics that I have seen). | |
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Somedays you're the pigeon, Somedays the statue... | | | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: February 21, 2004 - 8:31:11 AM
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When the blades were extended a force field covered the forarms making an inpentrable shield
RPG technobabble to make the Cyclone a mecha characters would survive with. If that is possible in the series don't you think it would have been used on all other mecha and ships?
also the blades were vibro blades meaning they vibrated very fast alowing them to cut through nearly anything
Sure they do. Try hacking through tank armor with a knife/sword, vibrating or not.
I use to play the palladium system and what i had my character do is jump on the backs of the invid cut open the pannel they were inserted in, then it was opened for shooting or blade through the brain.
Of course in Palladium the Cyclone and CVR-3 are far tougher than the Invid mecha, the forcefields can block anything anytime in any event, the Cyclone has a near-automatic dodge and the Invid are lousy shots whose weapons usually don't do much damage ...
Then in the series the Cyclone's can't take more than one or two Invid shots, they don't have forcefields whatsoever and all pilots prefer to shoot Invid from a distance rather than get close to those claws and guns.
If I were an REF pilot I would rather have the CADs rather then four missles. Every servival expert will tell you that a good knife will keep you alive longer than a gun or ammo will.
But this thread is about battle effectiveness, not the ability to stay alive behind enemy lines -- a task that requires not being noticed rather than engaging the enemy. | |
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