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Doug Bendo
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: If the armies of the Southern Cross can’t do it than Macross can?
Started on: May 31, 2004 - 9:35:52 PM
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Response 40 of 292  |
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Doug Bendo
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: MacNamera your pretty good but...
Posted on: June 25, 2004 - 11:54:17 PM
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Gideon Krieg, MacNamera, TotsugekiBomber7; I don’t think any of you guys understand robotech weaponry. The RTM biroid using a particle beam drum. Now let me tell you what a particle be does. A particle beam is a beam that is shot that can break down and splits the atoms of a compound/ or element. A weapon that can do that is more powerful than a 30mm cannon at the least. The biroid hover craft use plasma. Now I hope you guys are leaning something new when I say plasma is that hot stuff that you fun on the sun . So that’s the first thing I want you say.
Now moving on to the RTM fleet; they had more than 12 mother ships. In fact the true is it is never stated how many ships are in the RTM fleet. But if you look at the blips on the radar you will count more than 12. How can you guys be talking about the ARMD class? Wing-Zero gundam could destroy that thing with one shot and the Landing Frigate assault craft would eat them for lunch. Then you want to talk about the Macross class, ya it destroyed Dolza’s ship bit did you see the way it got destroy. Then it got destroyed agen on Macross 2. Then it was taken over on Macross plus and then all of its great firepower couldn’t stop the YF-19 from plowing in two its command bridge. After you think about all that when it comes to the Macross class do you really want it to go up agents a RTM mother ship.
Some thing else I think everyone should thing about. Macross 2, now I want you to think about those Reaction weapons that you believe are so great. The Macross fired it main Reaction weapons cannon and just smunged the glass on Emperor Inguess Flagship. Ya and we all know that happen to the Macross after that. But then if you recall emperor Inguess Flagship was destroyed by lasers. Now first of all its impossible for the RTM mother ships to be destroyed the same way that emperor Inguess Flagship ship was. I taking with out shields because the RTM ships have laser sorramic. Lasers are the most common weapon an any UN-spacey ship.haha. that why the SC ships used mostly plasma cannons. Reaction weapons couldn’t destroy Emperor Inguess Flagship then what chance do they have agenst the RTM mother ships. Their ships were way better built than Emperor Inguess Flagship was.
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 25, 2004 - 11:59:19 PM
Edited on: June 26, 2004 - 12:01:41 AM
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The shells are each doing that 1MJ worth of smack across an area in such a short time span that the vibration alone would cause some major stessing of the armor material.
The backing of the armor is almost as important as the armor itself, true.
It punches a hole through it (THose round's are capible of fully penitrating upwards of 12inch of armor. Not a tank on the planet that can stand up to it, regardless of what surface of the tank the round impacts on).
The numbers I have seen quoted for some modern tanks are 600-700mm (23"-27.5") armor equivalent, the penetration for the GAU-8 as 70mm (2.8"). Upwards of 12" is 305+mm
This would seem to be supported because tanks usually mount 4"-5" tubes for better armor penetration against other tanks. 30mm is about 1.2". | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 12:08:00 AM
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Now let me tell you what a particle be does. A particle beam is a beam that is shot that can break down and splits the atoms of a compound/ or element.
Particle beam guns fire (particle) streams of ions, electrons, or protons. They do damage by heating and radiation. They do not split atoms for any appreciable effect.
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USN Hornet Pilot
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: Hmm....
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 2:13:34 AM
Edited on: June 26, 2004 - 2:17:33 AM
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30mm slugs in space will do more damage to a target then a particle beam cannon. Sure the armor will melt if hit, but in space, where it's very cold, the effect of the heating will only be short term. Slugs will send the target reeling back and will be venting its precious innards. I have a game that has a kinetic weapon, and when I blasted a fighter with it, it couldn't get in range to fire its missile or lasers at me, whereas I was able to close in and blast it with a cluster missile. Now, Valkyries, unlike the fighters and Bioroids used by the TSC and Zor Lords, are transatmospheric, later versions of the VF-1 can reach orbit on their own. Fighters that can break through the atmosphere under their own power and re-enter have a decisive advantage when it comes to planetary assaults. Dropships make nice targets for the defenders.
Now, Bendo, the reason the YF-19 couldn't be stopped by the SDF-1's guns is because first of all, the SDF-1 has anti-capital ship weapons, and by 2040, the Destroids were retired and given to colonial defense forces and sold off to collectors and such. The Destroids and whatever Valkyries that stood on it acted as point-defense for smaller targets like fighters, battle pods, and armor suits. One reason why I don't like Gundam much: mecha are pasting warships. And in Macross II, the SDF-1 was just passed up as a relic of Space War I, it was left alone, nobody occupied it unlike in Macross Plus where it serves as the main HQ for the UN. Even the SDF-1 from Macross Plus wasn't meant to fight(actively that is) anymore after its refit in 2031. The new Macross-class ships are made of sturdier material unlike the old Supervision gunboat.
And you're right, lasers are a common weapon on UN mecha, the HEAD laser(s) on the Valkyries are for anti-missile application and are the last line of defense in Battroid mode. And Reaction weapons weren't even present in Macross II. And lasers didn't destroy Inguese's fortress, those were Macross-cannon style weapon discharges, but seeing how the animation got so God damn poor towards the end, they look like lasers. UN mecha have all the advantage because of multi-targeting, transformation, Reaction weapons, modular add-ons(Super/Strike/GPB Armor/Fold Booster), aerodynamically stable, "hot rod" engines, durability, etc. The warships on the other hand can carry many, many, many fighters, hell, not all of them are Valkyries, some are Variable Bombers, thus increasing the application of Reaction warheads, and let's not forget the Zentraedi warships, those carry A LOT of mecha. A Queadlunn-Rau can totally wipe the floor with a Bioroid since it has an inertia control system, hell, a CF Meltran can fly circles around a bunch of Bioroids which use hoverboards to get around. | |
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Brooklyn Red Leg
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: I thought particle beam weaponry
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 5:44:57 AM
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did kinetic damage as well as heat/energy? | |
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Humor is a sense that can only avail itself when something funny is present. You are funny, but only in a pathetically ironic manner.
It's not that history repeats itself, it's that stupidity is a congenital condition.
- Morthoron | | | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 8:50:19 AM
Edited on: June 26, 2004 - 8:55:00 AM
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Sure the armor will melt if hit, but in space, where it's very cold, the effect of the heating will only be short term.
Space is very cold but heat transfer is extremely slow. And after being pierced through with a hot lance getting rid of the heat isn't perhaps the most pressing concern.
Now, Valkyries, unlike the fighters and Bioroids used by the TSC and Zor Lords, are transatmospheric, later versions of the VF-1 can reach orbit on their own.
All ASC fighter designs function in space and in the atmosphere. Also, the Sylphids are seen to reach orbit on their own.
Fighters that can break through the atmosphere under their own power and re-enter have a decisive advantage when it comes to planetary assaults.
Note that when reaching low orbit the VF-1 usually doesn't carry much armament and to reach anywhere higher requires a massive booster and fuel add-on.
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 8:54:02 AM
Edited on: June 26, 2004 - 8:55:58 AM
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I thought particle beam weaponry did kinetic damage as well as heat/energy?
Here are two quotes on the subject:
The [neutral particle beam (NPB)] delivers its kinetic energy directly into the atomic and subatomic structure of the target, literally heating the target from deep within. [...] At relatively low powers, the penetrating beam can enter platforms and payloads, producing considerable heat and uncontrollable ionization. Thus, the NPB is useful at the low end of the spectrum of force, producing circuit disruption without necessarily permanently damaging the target system. At higher powers, the NPB most easily damages and destroys sensitive electronics, although it is fully capable of melting solid metals and igniting fuel and explosives.
The mechanism by which a particle beam destroys a target is a depositing of beam energy into the material of the target, which might be any material object. As the particles of the beam collide with the atoms, protons, and electrons of the material composing the target, the energy of the particles in the beam is passed on to the atoms of the target much like a cue ball breaks apart a racked group of billiard balls. The result is that the target is heated rapidly to very high temperatures--which is exactly the effect that one observes in an explosion. Thus, a particle beam of sufficient energy can destroy a target by exploding it (although that is not the only means of destruction).
Heat energy is, after all, kinetic energy. So it does kinetic damage by heat transfer. | |
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MacNamera
Rank: Private 1st Class
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Subject: Nope...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 9:09:08 AM
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All beam weaponry does is heat a very finite area of the targets surface and melt a hole (Provideb the beam 1. has sufficient power to heat the target vs the target material's ability to dissipate heat 2. the beam has enough time in a very small area of the target to heat a small area enough to cause damage).
Doug, Plasma is indeed some very hot stuff. But all plasma really is is a ionized gas state of an atom. As soon as the plasma leaves it's heat souce it cools so rapidly that its not very useful as a weapon.
P, ever seen what 30mm API does to a tank? Any tank? Just ask anyone was driving a T-72 last year in Iraq... Some tanks might have greater than 12inches of armor if you're firing at the frontal glacias plateing from ground level at a near to zero degree trajectory (This is due to the angling of the plating along thise axis on the. The purpose of angling the surface of a tanks armor is that if measured along a line parrelel to the gound, the thickness of the armor from the outside to the inside is greater then the actual thickness of the plate itself). However, I've never once heard of an attack pilot that was firing on a tank while his plane was sitting on the ground where the slanting of the armor doesn't offer nearly the protection it does to ground fire. Tanks are well designed vs small arms fire and heavy fire from other tanks, but they're extremely vulnerable to airpower. THis is also why modern anti-tank weapons usually fly a ballistic arc so they impact on the top of the tank, rather then it's front or sides.
As far as the YF-19 playing X-Treme Combat Tag with the SDF's CIWS guns at the end of Macross Plus. Not that hard to envision really. High speed, high manueverability target, good pilot, and a great airframe. Also helped that Isamu(SP?) wasn't having to contend with the SDF's fighter complement at the same time as dodging the ships CIWS. Sharon could hack the automated defense systems, but thankfully she couldn't do the same with Veritechs. Otherwise Macross Plus would've ended about 20 minutes early.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm fro a night.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. | | | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 9:43:13 AM
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All beam weaponry does is heat a very finite area of the targets surface and melt a hole
Not if the beams intensity is so high and its duration so short that the sublimated surface material cannot move out of the way of the beam before it terminates. In that case said material will absorb the full yield, be superheated and explode.
It's not what is usually envisioned as a directed energy weapon though.
Some tanks might have greater than 12inches of armor if you're firing at the frontal glacias plateing from ground level at a near to zero degree trajectory
The number isn't the actual thickness, but the equivalent thickness of Chobham armor expressed as standard steel armor. The 700mm stated is against kinetic penetrators such as the API. Against HEAT rounds the equivalent thickness appears to be even better.
The purpose of angling the surface of a tanks armor is that if measured along a line parrelel to the gound, the thickness of the armor from the outside to the inside is greater then the actual thickness of the plate itself
It also increases the chance of the round bouncing off.
However, I've never once heard of an attack pilot that was firing on a tank while his plane was sitting on the ground where the slanting of the armor doesn't offer nearly the protection it does to ground fire. Tanks are well designed vs small arms fire and heavy fire from other tanks, but they're extremely vulnerable to airpower.
Well, I did say (at June 25, 2004 - 3:44:09 PM) it was the frontal armor I was discussing, and you then claimed (at June 25, 2004 - 3:56:10 PM) that the 30mm round could pierce any armor on the tank. Whether the A-10 is a capable tank-killer was never a question.
The original point was that of a 30mm cannon against Bioroids, by other mecha, which would act against the main chest armor. We can see in occasions when Zor steps out that it is a quite thick plate. If the armor on the Bioroid can stop the round, then the GAU-8 isn't reliably going to do the job.
Hence the effectiveness of the Hovertank heavy gun against the things -- that is a 105mm cannon. | |
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USN Hornet Pilot
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: Uh...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 3:38:23 PM
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Note that when reaching low orbit the VF-1 usually doesn't carry much armament and to reach anywhere higher requires a massive booster and fuel add-on.
The VF-1s after the Space War I era were capable of reaching orbit under their own power, although not as quickly as the YF-19 or YF-21. I know that Southern Cross mecha can operate in space, but they can't get to space on their own, they need a transport shuttle, except for the said Sylphids.
As far as the YF-19 playing X-Treme Combat Tag with the SDF's CIWS guns at the end of Macross Plus. Not that hard to envision really. High speed, high manueverability target, good pilot, and a great airframe. Also helped that Isamu(SP?) wasn't having to contend with the SDF's fighter complement at the same time as dodging the ships CIWS. Sharon could hack the automated defense systems, but thankfully she couldn't do the same with Veritechs. Otherwise Macross Plus would've ended about 20 minutes early.
The SDF-1's cannons that were firing at Isamu weren't CWIS guns, those were anti-capital ship weapons, as you can tell by the size of the tracers and the guns themselves. Hell, look at the tremendous splash they make as they hit the water.  | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 4:57:10 PM
Edited on: June 26, 2004 - 5:02:00 PM
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The VF-1s after the Space War I era were capable of reaching orbit under their own power
To reach Breetais ship in high orbit, Skull squadron needed very large booster rockets while carrying nothing heavier than a baby cargo pod.
That is the last we see from the VF-1 in space for the Macross segment. If there were later VF-1 versions and what these could or could not do to and from orbit isn't part of Robotech anymore.
I know that Southern Cross mecha can operate in space, but they can't get to space on their own, they need a transport shuttle, except for the said Sylphids.
Chimera fighters are never seen launching from shuttles, but they do operate both in space and in the atmosphere. As far as we know, these too can reach orbit under their own power.
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USN Hornet Pilot
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: I said...
Posted on: June 26, 2004 - 6:54:24 PM
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"Space War I era", so that means after the Megaroad-01 launches as well. | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 4:17:03 AM
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I said... "Space War I era", so that means after the Megaroad-01 launches as well.
I read your qualifier. Nevertheless the last space use of VF-1s seen in Robotech is in 'Viva Miriya'. And they needed booster rockets.
What happened after that in space and veritech design in Macross isn't part of Robotech anymore. | |
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Doug Bendo
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: 30 mm cannon no more
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 11:39:39 AM
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USN Hornet Pilot lets something straight here YOU DON”T KNOW MY REASONING FOR ANYTHING. THE REASON THE YF-19 WAS NOT DESTROYED BY THE MACROSS WAS THAT IT HAD A PINPOINT BARRIER SHEILDING IT. THE ARTILERY FROM THE MACROSS COULD NOT STOP THE FIGHTER. WATCH THE AGAIN AND YOU WILL SEE THAT.
Witch brings us back to the 30mm cannon. The 30mm cannon couldn’t go through the pinpoint barrier but guess what that particle beam can. MacNamera a particle beam doesn’t heat up anything. Stop trying to make up your own stuff. If you want to do that then just leave. Now as regarding to what you are saying about plasma cannon. I understand what you are saying. But what you are forgetting about the RTM is that they have the ability to control things such plasma. Don’t forget the invid could do the same thing. I would say it’s pretty pointless to bring up a t-72 tank. I mean it only as a front armor of t-72 is 280mm, t-80 450mm armor, t-90 550mm armor and the way tanks are main today the sides and back are about have of the front armor. The A-1 tank has an armor of 600mm and the A-2 has an armor of 800mm. The pinot of why I’m taking about this is that the t-72 had a 125mm cannon but it could only penetrate at max 550-mm armor. The A-1 has a 120mm cannon and it could penetrate 700mm. The bigger the gun doesn’t always make it the better.
Who cares if the Un-spacy fighters can leave the atmosphere and biroids can’t. Theirs nothing great about that RTM always use a Landing Frigate assault craft to take them places. The missiles that the UN-spacey fighters have don’t main squat. All you have to do it look at “False Start” the Landing Frigate assault craft will easy wipe out the whole force of missiles. So if the UN-spacey fighters are coming from the atmosphere (because we know that that’s just so cool) the shout the missile load; these have been wipe out by the Landing Frigate assault craft. So what is left now?
I guess in some way I can understand why your taking about coming out of the atmosphere. The battleships have know no real value anymore because the armed with mostly lasers that can do any thing to RTM ships. It just makes me feel so said that with all those Macross sagas you would think one UN-spacey fleet would have a chance.
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Doug Bendo
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: can any humans save us
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 11:50:25 AM
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So I see that the power of the robotech masters are greater than what we expected. Now you can use any human anime army. But you must give the info if a form of a web site that we can all go to and review. Gundam people this is your chance. Or if you wnat you guys can stand by UN-Spacey. | |
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P Thomassen
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 2:39:15 PM
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MacNamera a particle beam doesn’t heat up anything. Stop trying to make up your own stuff. If you want to do that then just leave.
Doug Bendo, your description of particle beam effects is incorrect. A short search on the net will give you plenty of scientific explanations of their effects, and they do not supprt your version.
Furthermore, accusing someone else of making things up and telling them to leave if they don't toe your particular line is not a generally accepted winning debate technique. In other words, you're wrong on numerous levels. | |
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USN Hornet Pilot
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: Alright Bendo.....
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 3:38:20 PM
Edited on: June 27, 2004 - 3:41:41 PM
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read my posts more carefully. I know more about Macross than YOU, so I don't need YOU telling ME about how **** works in Macross because you were booted out of the Macross II thread in the MACROSS, SOUTHERN CROSS, AND MOSPEADA FORUM. It's known that in any military, dropships with multitudes of troops in them are giant coffins, especially if they're not escorted, that would be the downfall of any planetary assault by the Zor Lords or the Robotech Masters, but the Armies of the Southern Cross have terribly weak fighters that can't hold their own, hence you always see them getting torn to shreds, hell, the Brownies in SDF Macross and DYRL? had more fight in them. Don't be so sure about the missiles the Valkyries carry, Macross has Reaction cluster warheads as well, which makes them all the more deadlier to any warship or installation. Southern Cross weapons are weak, it's a miracle that they barely held the line against the Zor Lords. Refer to the Macross Compendium or Nanashi's Information Group for information on Macross mecha. I'm sure you can Google it and find the sites in a flash.
P Tomassen, I'm talking about Macross, not Robotech. Bendo, why are you bringing Gundam into this? Gundam shouldn't be a part of this discussion, much like Macross Plus, the YF-19, YF-21 and Ghost X-9 shouldn't have been part of the Macross II discussion over in the other forum. You're derailing your own damn thread. And the multiple Macross series aren't referred to as "sagas", they're called "series". And it's hard to get your reasoning when you're a dumb *** that doesn't bother to make sure that everything that is typed is spelled correctly so the others replying can get you better. Go back to school, it's clear that you failed one to many English classes. Doug, the arguments presented by myself and other people are all made with a basis and you saying that we're making stuff up means you can't bring anything to the table whereas we've brought more than what's on the table during Thanksgiving.   | |
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Protoculture
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: USN Hornet Pilot .....
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 7:07:36 PM
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It's known that in any military, dropships with multitudes of troops in them are giant coffins, especially if they're not escorted, that would be the downfall of any planetary assault by the Zor Lords or the Robotech Masters, but the Armies of the Southern Cross have terribly weak fighters that can't hold their own, hence you always see them getting torn to shreds, hell, the Brownies in SDF Macross and DYRL? had more fight in them. Don't be so sure about the missiles the Valkyries carry, Macross has Reaction cluster warheads as well, which makes them all the more deadlier to any warship or installation. Southern Cross weapons are weak, it's a miracle that they barely held the line against the Zor Lords.
- In RT, in specific SC-era, there's no dropships seen.
- If SC was pitted against Zentraedi, they'll be doing reasonably well, but the nemesis is THE Masters we're talking about. Thank God for the protoculture drainage they were having.
- The Brownies Valks are cannon fodders in Macross, VF-11s are cannon fodders in Mcaross 7. They might have some fight, but cannon fodders they'll be. Besides, even SC pilots have some fight gaints Masters mechas before tuning out.
- As said in the thread, its not about SC versus Masters, its whether or not ANY represntation of Macross elements from the series could face off with the Masters aka Zor Lords. The Masters would've massacre the pre Space War One Macross or the Macross of pre Space War One (circa 2010 - 2012). Masters also have the capabilities to deal with ANY Macross Colonization Fleet as seen in Macross 7. | |
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Forever shall I be loyal to you, my love, my Queen...Mother of the Invid race, Regis.We shall rise like a fiery phoenix, together we will rewrite the history of space and time...Forever.
<attributed to Zor> | | | |
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Doug Bendo
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: USN Hornet Pilot this is for you
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 8:56:12 PM
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USN Hornet Pilot yes I suck at English. But I was good at everything else at school. Know body is perfect. Don’t even talk about Macross 2. You were just making bad things about it for months now and you just saw it like 3 weeks ago. Not like anything you say will ever hold weight. By the way I didn’t get booted out of the Macross forum I chose to leave cuze is sucked. You guys only talked when I said something. The worse thing was that you guys couldn’t comprehend basic things. I got bored of that. Also you guys are nothing more than a bunch of robotech haters that are too lazy to get your own web site. Most of all, this Forum just has better discussions and the people here are more intelligent the Macross people. I don’t see your problem if some one start talking about gundam. I made this forum and pretty much people here can say what they want. As long as it not just flat out stupid. If it is then they can leave and that’s all there is to it. The rules is it has to be a human army.
USN Hornet Pilot why are you still on this atmosphere fighter thing. First of all your all about Macross plus and the YF-19. You know more about Macross than I do… ok. So what I about to say shouldn’t even surprise you. In 2032 if the RTM would have attacked Un-Spacy they would have won. Heres why first thing is, UN-Spacey only had 1 YF-19 and YF-21( oops your already new that). On top of that Un-Spacy didn’t have fighters patrol its atmosphere. It relied on an auto defense net. Remember when YF-19 defolded into earth’s space and the planet went to deft-com 5. What happened… well I tell you what happed. The cannons turned and started shooting that it. No great UN-spacey battle ships came out to play, no fighters came out to meet the YF-19 except for the ghost and all that was it (to bad those destroids retied).
So lets up the RTM in place of the YF-19. Not looked to good. Now I know everyone going to say “Doug, Sharon was controlling everything”. So what if she was. First off UN-Spacey auto defense net couldn’t even hit a single fighter with all those cannons. Secondly there wasn’t a fighter or battle ship to be found around or on the planet. The wasn’t ever a base on Mars for the UN-Spacey forces to launch because if there was they would have done it. And seeing the that New Macross city is the only city left on earth in 2032 doesn’t do much for UN-Spacey either. So what does UN-Spacey going to do? Well its simple, the
auto defense net will fail because it can only hit “big” targets like the RTM mother ship (but really the RTM will just hack it like Sharon did ). Then after the robotech masters make it through the atmosphere they will blast the main cannons on the Macross. The that will force UN-Spacey to play its trump card the ghost fighter. The one little ghost fight along with a Macross with no main canons are all that stand between the people of earth and the RTM. Wow! I let everyone just come to there own conclusion on that one.
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death_deed
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: June 27, 2004 - 9:52:34 PM
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Bendo, I've been paying attention to this thread for awhile. I think were all tired of you. Go away. | |
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Kerry & Kucinich for President 2004!
DUR! YU LOST! WI WEN! GU HUAM!
-My impression Doug Bendo
LTCMDR Death_Deed (O-4)
OIC of Destroids on the Finale (005)
SVFA-88 Cobra Squadron
VF-1MS Metal Siren | | | |
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