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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: A potential “new” VF/A-6 model seen in the Series
Started on: August 8, 2004 - 10:23:50 AM
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Could what we commonly think of as the VF/B-5 Condor* actually be an early model of the VF/A-6 Alpha fighter and not a separate design?
Referencing the uRRG’s** pics they use for the Alpha and the Condor battloid modes one can see common features in:
-Shoulder Air-Intake & “Wings” appear similar between the two units
-forearms also appear similar
-with the exception of the “snout” on the Condor, the torso area resembles the Shadowfighters
We know that that the VF/A-6 has received some “mold” changes with each new model that is regarded as the VF/A-6 (from the infopedia):
-head changes slightly from model to model
-shadow equipped units sport “claws” as opposed to hands
-VTOL thrusters were dropped in shadow variants
-Z model was optimized for atmospheric operations
-sensor pod was dropped on the Shadow variants
-Shadow Drone had is missile placement changed for increased payload
-Shadow variants are equipped with Stealth features
-Shadow variants also have some “mold” changes done to the airframe
-Shadow variants also dropped the missile launchers located near the head
The uRRG believes that the VF/B-5 is related to the Alpha in many ways (arm and leg transformation sequence), but that the cockpit and torso transformations make it a separate VT noting similarities to the Beta (though I think it shares features with the tiny Logan in this regard and not the Beta). However it should be pointed out that it is never shown transforming in the show (or in the comics when it appears).
Making the Condor into an Alpha
So here is how I see the VF/B-5 becoming a VF/A-6. [Some] Early model Alphas did not allow for the cockpit section to fold back and be protected. This allowed for larger internal fuel loads to be carried, or perhaps even a weapons bay. Instead the cockpit section transformed similar to the Logan/Beta. Now it was realized that the cockpit was to exposed, so it was designed without any external “windows” requiring the pilot to fly on instruments alone. How this relates to the Beta’s long development time is anyone’s guess (was this “model(s)” in response to the Beta’s problems?).
With the introduction of the Beta it was realized that this extra fuel/weapons bay wasn’t needed, and allowed the cockpit to be more “traditional” and be “retracted” within the Alpha’s body in Battloid mode.
As the Shadow Fighters are considered VF/A-6 models, it can be shown that the Alpha frame does go through changes throughout its life between models. Though would altering the transformation sequence be enough to make it a new fighter as other features on the Alpha are known to change?
Footnotes:
*seen in a static pan shot in “The Secret Route” in Battloid mode only (even in the new comics)
**Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide (http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/ReferenceGuide.html)
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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Supercharger[VF-1J]
Rank: Private
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Subject: .
Posted on: August 8, 2004 - 1:35:50 PM
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YAK YAK BLAH BLAH.HAHAHAH, just kiding you make sence it just might be  | |
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alphavt
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: .
Posted on: August 9, 2004 - 7:35:44 AM
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At least by comparing this case to the development of real aircraft, I don't think I can agree with your theory. The changes are too radical for me to believe that the Condor is an early model Alpha. Studying a capture from the actual series, you can see the intakes are more like regular Alpha than Shadow Fighter ones, they do have the bar.
The arms and legs are similar, but the shoulder connections, feet, and "head" are completely different. Predecessor vehicles sometimes look similar. Indeed, outwardly, the P-39 Aircobra looked almost identical to its successor, the P-63 Kingcobra. Likewise, the FJ-1 Fury was a limited production precursor to the legendary F-86 Saber, differing in appearence primarily in that it had straight rather than swept wings.
What I'm arguing here is that I don't believe we'd be seeing such radical changes in what could be reasonably considered the same Veritech. Long-term production can cause some minor changes in an aircraft or Veritech (we see detail changes in the Alpha as the Shadow Fighter enters production) but I have to believe that unlike the Shadow Fighter, the Condor does not share the same basic airframe with the Alpha. The "head", which presumably represents the nose of the fighter, is of an entirely different design, and it's not even clear if the vehicle can transform.
Line art and capture on Cyc's site for reference: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~cyc01/mbr-12.htm | |
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Six years...seems like an eternity. How much have you grown in that time? | | | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 9, 2004 - 6:36:21 PM
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The changes are too radical for me to believe that the Condor is an early model Alpha. Studying a capture from the actual series, you can see the intakes are more like regular Alpha than Shadow Fighter ones, they do have the bar.
The arms and legs are similar, but the shoulder connections, feet, and "head" are completely different.
I’m not advocating that these changes occurred all between one model, perhaps there are a few models that bring these differences more to the accepted Alphas.
torso/intake issue
With regard to the Shadow/Condor I wasn’t thinking of the intakes as part of the torso in that regard. I was looking at between them down to between the legs. The Shadow variants are different here than in the other accepted Alpha models.
head/nose issue
The only real radical change I can see is the cockpit/nose area (and its role in transformation). That is the only real sticking point to the idea. Perhaps it can be explained that we are seeing an Early Alpha model in the equivalent of the VF-1’s Armored Battloid Suit (ABS). Rendering the issue mute, as we never see it in a vehicle form, or its “natural” battloid mode to make a call one way or the other.
Shoulder Issue
The uRRG puts the Condor’s internal missiles in the legs (different than Cyc’s description), plus a weapons bay and hardpoints. If that is the case the Shoulders may have been changed when the launchers were included in that location to support the added weight. The Shadow Drone has different shoulders than the other accepted models also.
feet issue
The Shadow drone is described as having re-styled feet in the Infopedia entry.
The feet thing may also relate to the VF/A-6 having an ABS (mentioned in the head section).
The engines may have been changed in later models, possibly requiring a redesigned outlet.
Predecessor vehicles sometimes look similar.
Generally speaking that is the rule, but I can think of a few exceptions.
Are there examples of radical alterations in airframe in the real world?
I can think of the F-35’s 3 different variants (Carrier, S/VTOL, Conventional). Not really radical as the S/VTOL system is different for each (the carrier contains STOL IIRC, and the Conventional replaces it with a fuel tank), but there are changes nonetheless that change its operational use.
Both the F-15 & F-16 have had radical alterations to its frame and still referred to as that type of aircraft. Granted these where test aircraft in use by NASA. The F-15 had canards mounted on its frame, and the F-16 received a completely redesigned wing (Called the F-16XL).
The F/A-18E/F model is physically larger than the previous C/D models.
While not fighter aircraft the Russian Soyuz craft has undergone several major modifications, some of which resulted in a new designation (like Progress (-M), -T, -TM, and IIRC the ISS uses Soyuz with another designation). These new designations did not appear until the 1980s. The 1960-70’s had major changes, some of which included docking systems (early models required an EVA to switch craft), power generation (early models had solar cells, but they where dropped and later put back with the T), an “extra” fuel tank was dropped after several flights, and crew count reduction (to allow the wearing of spacesuits). Still the craft was called Soyuz.
The "head", which presumably represents the nose of the fighter, is of an entirely different design, and it's not even clear if the vehicle can transform.
The “Condor” does appear in the Invasion Comics, but isn’t identified as a non-transformable battloid or a Veritech IIRC. Otherwise it only appears in one pan shot in the series without any real identification.
OSM pits it as a non-transformable battloid. The uRRG states that material exists that it predates the alpha and is transformable (weather its Robotech notes or OSM they didn’t say). This information can be found at their site, reading the “additional design notes” on the VF/B-5
http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/Veritech/Condor.html
http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/Veritech/veritech_notes.html#Condor
Who knows perhaps it is a design like the YF-17 that had to be changed to meet the requirements of entering service with the US Navy, the changes where such that it was given a new designation (F/A-18).
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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Brooklyn Red Leg
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: Actually ShadowLogan
Posted on: August 10, 2004 - 1:32:29 AM
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The OSM materials is where it states that the Condor is in fact transformable. I believe that it comes from the lineart and info in the Artmic Entertainment Bible #16. | |
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Humor is a sense that can only avail itself when something funny is present. You are funny, but only in a pathetically ironic manner.
It's not that history repeats itself, it's that stupidity is a congenital condition.
- Morthoron | | | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 12, 2004 - 11:12:14 AM
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Thank you for correcting me Brook, I was looking at Cyc’s website (where its listed/described as non-transformable), and recall reading it in the forums at some time (may have also been thinking of the Conbat). A second GCM website available from the uRRG lists it as a transformable mecha (the author is from the uRRG).
”Wings” may also be an issue
The wing design of the “Condor” is different than the Alpha (at least it appears that way in Battloid mode). If you look at line art from the uRRG for the Alpha and Condor’s rear views you can notice it. The Alpha’s meet in the back and the Condor’s don’t. This could point to the Alpha having a larger wing than the “Condor” model. This doesn’t prove that the “Condor” couldn’t be an Alpha model, as wing’s can have their size increased between models (F/A-18 C/D to E/F and IIRC YF-22 to F/A-22A have different wing sizes).
Other points, additional thoughts on the ABS
The Condor’s feet appear very rigid/one piece affairs in comparison to other Veritechs seen in Battloid mode in the line art.
This doesn’t mean they couldn’t be changed for some reason in later models. And like I pointed out the Infopedia lists the Drone as having different feet. So there is some evidence that they have been redesigned in the past possibly.
The head is still a major sticking point in the idea. And I agree that if it really is the nose section of the fighter mode then it shouldn’t be a VF/A-6 Alpha model (no evidence of that area changing so radically).
Though I think it might be something akin to the VF-1’s Armored Battloid Suit that we are seeing. (The Beta has a concept drawing of something similar at http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/Research/Mospeada/Mospeada.html under the Beta section bottom of the entry).
Now why would the Alpha’s ABS only sport the “head” and “feet” changes? Well on the VF-1 the ABS did 2 things to the Battloid: more missiles carried and more armor.
If the Condor is an Alpha model in an ABS, then mounting additional pods with missiles/armor isn’t going to work as you would be blocking the existing missile launchers. Though this doesn’t mean supplemental launchers on the body are out, but their placement would be limited to the torso and upper legs (on a recognized Alpha).
The VF-1’s ABS though required the addition of 2 large boosters on its back reminiscent of the FAST packs (only slimmer). What if the “Condor” nose is the equivalent of a dorsal mounted FAST pack from the VF-1? Though maybe without the Engines, it’s also covering the cockpit location on a normal Alpha’s. Perhaps the Alpha-Condor could handle the extra mass without losing much mobility (like on the VF-1) even in an atmosphere as the Invasion comics have it flying in battloid mode.
I know that I may be stretching things here with the idea of an ABS to explain away some of the differences between a “Condor” and the Alpha Battloids. But it is a simpler explanation than having various models with different radical physical features in some areas that either changed between several models or a radical change between one model (next to the accepted notion that it is a separate platform of course).
It can also show that some "innovations" from the Macross saga where carried over in later generations possibly (At least in a Robotech context and not an OSM one).
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 12, 2004 - 1:03:50 PM
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The new comics said the Condor was non-transformable which opened up a huge debate over it as many had accepted it was based on that OSM reference and some of the design details (like the wings).
Tommy intially indicated the Condor wasn't transformable (said he couldn't find the OSM reference in question or anything in the OSM to support it) but he might be able to retcon it into a VT then later said he had designed (at least) two modes for it and would include them in the Condor entry which was supposed to go up after issue 4 came out (um, how long ago was that  ).
As for it's design details...
Arms and main structure of legs are Alphalike. The shoulders are Alphalike although they are much more compact/sparse and don't have the missile racks. Wings are pretty much like the outboard portion of the Alpha's. Legs are mounted below the main body like the Beta. It has a Betalike snout/nose. Intakes and general shape of their mountings are a sorta Alpha/Beta hybrid. Upper aft of the body is Combatlike. The hips aren't really Alpha or Beta -like though closer to the Beta and don't appear to rotate as far around as the Alpha's can. And the feet are completely different than either one.
I think most likely it is a seperate mecha that predates or parrellels the developmental stages of the Alpha and Beta. | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 15, 2004 - 10:48:53 AM
Edited on: August 15, 2004 - 10:51:36 AM
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The new comics said the Condor was non-transformable which opened up a huge debate over it as many had accepted it was based on that OSM reference and some of the design details (like the wings).
Odd, one of the no name pilots (or is meant to be Daniels?) in Invasion#4 states: “Prepare to switch to Guardian…” when they are approaching the Hive with the Garfish in it. Sounds like it’s a VT, unless the pilot was talking to some other mecha group (Cyclones and a “Condor” are visible. Most we see is two Condors and that was on the preceding page).
Arms and main structure of legs are Alphalike. The shoulders are Alphalike although they are much more compact/sparse and don't have the missile racks.
However, as I’ve pointed out between models there can be some alterations to the size of components. Even the accepted Alpha’s are shown to have differences in the shoulder region (Specifically the Shadow Drone to the other Alphas).
Perhaps those missing missile racks where added with later models (the F/A-18E/F has more hard-points than the C/D model). So in the real world weapon stations can be added. In the Case of the REF VTs missiles tend to be internally carried on screen, so it would make sense that new hard points would be designed to be “internal”.
Legs are mounted below the main body like the Beta.
??? I would hope the legs would be mounted below the main body. 
The only real pictures we have of the “Condor” are Battloid mode pics. And in that regard the legs have more Alpha features than Beta features. Or are you referencing some pics that I’m not familiar with? (I know the uRRG has a gallery of it in “fighter” mode).
The Beta legs contain intakes, the Alpha’s don’t. The “Condor” is Alpha like in that regard. The Alpha had “knee gaurds” like a “Condor” though more trimmed than a “Condor”, the Beta doesn’t.
It has a Betalike snout/nose.
Which I’ve been thinking may be a modular add on similar to the VF-1’s Armored Battloid system, IF it is an early Alpha Model.
The pan shot where the “Condor” is seen on screen appears to have 2 different configurations on the back. One has a single “jet pack” and two other appear to have twin “jet packs” of the 4 in the pic, a fourth is only partially visible. The blue globes behind each unit, if you look where they attach they look like different configurations.
I’ve mentioned that the Beta (in the OSM at least) had what amounted to an Armored battloid System like the VF-1, though it was descried as a weapon’s add-on (which is what the ABS is… partially). Perhaps we can think of the “Condor” in this manner in regards to the Alpha.
And the feet are completely different than either one.
There’s nothing to say that the feet can’t be redesigned between models (or altered with an add-on). The only reason I can see that being done though is if a new propulsion engine was installed in the legs and their exhaust nozzles (typically the feet of other VTs) needed to be changed.
If we are looking at an add on, perhaps they are meant as a shield for re-entry duties for the foot thrusters when the Alpha is in the “Condor” configuration. Their use on the surface as suggested by the comics, may indicate that the foot thrusters aren’t useable in Battloid mode for early models of the Alpha (if it is one).
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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alphavt
Rank: Lt Commander
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Subject: Brook-
Posted on: August 15, 2004 - 1:53:34 PM
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The OSM materials is where it states that the Condor is in fact transformable.
Are you referring to the page from ARTMIC that you sent me? It was rather ambivilant, remember? It said transformation was "possible"- but did it mean that it was possible to transform or just that it was possible (but not thought out) that it did transform? | |
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Six years...seems like an eternity. How much have you grown in that time? | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 15, 2004 - 2:50:15 PM
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Yeah, you're right, in RI #4 it's implied they are going to transform to Guardian mode. Most likely this was slipped in at the last min to correct Tommy's change of mind about whether the Condor was a Veritech or not. I had missed this because quite frankly during L&W I stopped paying any kind of serious attention to the new comics.
From RI #1
Blonde guy with Lance: ... COULDN'T SPARE ANY TRANSFORMABLE VERITECH MECHA FOR US.
Lance: ...WE HAVE PLENTY OF CONDOR BATTLOIDS...
So now there's a contradiction in the new comics (which isn't anything new ) or either we have two types of Condor, a Battloid and a Veritech.
I meant that the legs are a section seperate from and below the main body like on a Beta. The Alpha's legs are technically below the body but are built into the main section of the body not connected to a sub body below it. In other words the Alpha's legs/engines remain behind the intakes on the chest except when the body rotates down for Battloid mode. The Beta's legs are always below the chest/intakes in every mode. The Condor is more like the Beta than Alpha in this regard.
uRRG's fighter mode is unlikely IMO, I've studied the only appearance and scarce line art and their transformation is not in any real way based on what's onscreen and in the art rather how they'd like it to be, a retcon. Though I do thing the Condor could have a fighterlike mode and may be transformable.
IINM, the Beta has cannons in the top of the legs and not intakes. The intakes are a retcon by Tommy in his Beta art IIRC.
In the line art there appears to be a glass reflection down the side of the snout which may suggest a cockpit window of sorts, if that is the case then the snout wouldn't be an addon. These side windows may loosely correspond to the domed windows on the forward sides of the Beta's snout. Also, since the Beta has a snout with the pilot located in it and the Alpha nor Beta have addon armor in the tv series I think it's more likely a case of the snout being Betalike rather than addon. But hey that's just my opinion based on studying the lineart.
Although the Condor does appear to have addon aft fast/jet packs that could come in different configurations based on the engine glows.
BTW, wasn't the addons for the Beta in the pre-production line art just a bunch of weapons and not really armor?
Personally I think the design of the feet was primarily to benefit the Condor when hovering/floating in Guardian/Battlod mode. While I believe it may have a fighter(like) mode I think it was primarily designed for Guardian/Battloid use. And two other circumstancial things -- 1) the Alphas are never seen to walk in Battloid mode and the Beta only once and 2) Wolfe seems especially adept at using the Alpha in Guardian and Battloid modes as apposed to fighter. I personally think that TNG era mecha favored G and B modes and hovering/floating over walking like previous generations. | |
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Lieutenant Scott Bernard
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ....
Posted on: August 15, 2004 - 5:30:46 PM
Edited on: August 15, 2004 - 5:40:26 PM
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The Condor is more like a Beta than an Alpha IMO because of its moderately heavy armor. It would be cool to see it in VT mode. (The Condor Fighter Mode by Matt Willis on Robotech Technical Files gives us a fair idea of where to go) Though it's possible that it doesn't have a VT mode at all. It could have been launched in Battloid mode from the Ikazuchis like the way the Alpha Battloids did in the first Episode of NewGen. But it could also have been launched from the Garfishes because we see their legs swooped up like the Betas in that pan shot sketch.
If Tommy were to say that the Condor doesn't have a VT mode then it would contradict the Invasion comic book series since those Condors were launched from Garfishes? (sorry haven't read Invasion at all, no comment on THAT comic book series *rollseyes*)
I think the real reason why these Condors were made was for the primary reason of preparing the officers to be more comfortable piloting the Beta. Who knows maybe the Condor was the Prototype Beta (??).
Also, I don't really believe the Condor had a Guardian mode. The nose/cockpit is already in position like the Alpha's Guardian mode. Personally, it seems to me that the Condor was a poor man's Beta which probably was part of the reason why the First Reclamation Force failed.
BTW, were there any Betas in the Invasion comic? ^^;
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 18, 2004 - 10:21:54 AM
Edited on: August 18, 2004 - 10:26:30 AM
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So now there's a contradiction in the new comics (which isn't anything new ) or either we have two types of Condor, a Battloid and a Veritech.
Perhaps and then again maybe not. IIRC, Lisa did not use Veritech in the description for the Armored Battloid prototype? If that is the case, then perhaps the Condor is a similar system attached to a Battloid mode VT?
BTW, wasn't the addons for the Beta in the pre-production line art just a bunch of weapons and not really armor?
Yes, and I did mention it. “I’ve mentioned that the Beta (in the OSM at least) had what amounted to an Armored battloid System like the VF-1, though it was described as a weapon’s add-on (which is what the ABS is… partially)” Sorry if I was suggesting that it included armor in the Beta.
When it comes to mounting additional modules on accepted Alpha models, those modules would interfere with the existing weapon systems and to not interfere with them would be limited in placement. Maybe to the shoulder/intakes area, head, upper legs, and chest areas and would affect transformation in some.
The Beta's legs are always below the chest/intakes in every mode. The Condor is more like the Beta than Alpha in this regard.
This is my problem with that idea, we only have images of the Condor in Battloid mode, so how can we be sure of this? Or are there pre-production drawings of it in another mode?
Incidentally on the subject of the Condor’s legs, don’t they seem to change from the front profile to the rear profile in the line art (at the uRRG). Just something I noticed.
uRRG's fighter mode is unlikely IMO, I've studied the only appearance and scarce line art and their transformation is not in any real way based on what's onscreen and in the art rather how they'd like it to be, a retcon. Though I do thing the Condor could have a fighterlike mode and may be transformable.
The only other place I’ve seen a speculation on the fighter mode is Robotech Research, an RPG site. Their drawings of it’s fighter mode are different, and do give it a Beta like quality. So we have different conflicting fan speculations on the subject. ;)
IINM, the Beta has cannons in the top of the legs and not intakes. The intakes are a retcon by Tommy in his Beta art IIRC.
IINM (???)
The Infopedia does list them as being mounted in intakes. IIRC, the RPG lists the legs as having intakes (though they don’t give them cannons as shown in the series, but missile launchers). Not that the RPG should be relied on for accurate information. The uRRG identifies them the same way, as does Cyc’s website for the OSM.
In the line art there appears to be a glass reflection down the side of the snout which may suggest a cockpit window of sorts, if that is the case then the snout wouldn't be an addon. These side windows may loosely correspond to the domed windows on the forward sides of the Beta's snout.
They could also be sensor “covers”, IIRC optical sensors do have “glass like covering” in the real world. Though given the size on the Condor it either has a lot of sensors that need the covering or…
Personally I think the design of the feet was primarily to benefit the Condor when hovering/floating in Guardian/Battlod mode
To me it looks like they are “covers” in the line art. In the comics and animation you can see the bottom, which aren’t like other mecha. So perhaps if it is an Alpha with addons (or maybe its predecessor*) the feet “covers” are intended to give it better performance in some regard.
*the RPG listed the Alpha as VAF-6 and the Shadow Alpha Fighter as VAF-7. Things like this do happen in the real world. The Northrop F-5/F-20 aircraft I’ve seen described as the same airframe different guts (one is single engine the other twin). The F/A-18 is based on the YF-17. So it maybe possible to keep the VF-5 designation for the Condor, and treat the VF-6 (Alpha) as a major upgrade to that design. Though this would suggest that the VF-5 was quickly replaced with the VF-6 (as the Beta has the VF-X-7 & VF-9, the Logan is the VF-8, the AGAC is VF-10, and that doesn’t count the uRRG’s Sylphid which is also VF-7).
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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Brooklyn Red Leg
Rank: Lieutenant
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Subject: AVT
Posted on: August 18, 2004 - 11:16:29 AM
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It said transformation was "possible"- but did it mean that it was possible to transform or just that it was possible (but not thought out) that it did transform?
I thought it was from the Artmic page I sent you. One of the sources lists the Condor as an Armo-Fighter....now I cant remember which one. If it isnt the Entertainment Bible...then maybe its Artmic Design Works. | |
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Humor is a sense that can only avail itself when something funny is present. You are funny, but only in a pathetically ironic manner.
It's not that history repeats itself, it's that stupidity is a congenital condition.
- Morthoron | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 18, 2004 - 12:22:53 PM
Edited on: August 18, 2004 - 12:27:37 PM
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Perhaps and then again maybe not. IIRC, Lisa did not use Veritech in the description for the Armored Battloid prototype? If that is the case, then perhaps the Condor is a similar system attached to a Battloid mode VT?
I don't follow, in the instance of the comic the "Battloid" comment is a couple of lines later as part of the same conversation as the "couldn't spare any transformable veritch mecha for us".
This is my problem with that idea, we only have images of the Condor in Battloid mode, so how can we be sure of this? Or are there pre-production drawings of it in another mode?
Well it could be a Guardian mode, we don't know. Yeah I suppose there could be transformable elements invovled that aren't obvious. But in the available line art the body appears to be as deep if not deeper than it is high in this mode. This is more characteristic of the Beta than of the Alpha who's body tends to be noticably narrower in height while in fighter and Guardian modes and narrower in body depth while in Battloid (in other words the Alphas body/torso tends to rotate while the Beta's doesn't IINM).
Incidentally on the subject of the Condor’s legs, don’t they seem to change from the front profile to the rear profile in the line art (at the uRRG). Just something I noticed.
How so? I noticed there is a slight difference of perspection in the two views and their is an apparently depth inconsistancy between them in the chest in relation to the placement of the shoulder/arm.
That reminds me about you earlier comments concerning knees. While the Alpha and Beta's knees aren't really all that different, if you compare their knees it does appear the Condor's is more like the Beta's than Alpha's.
The only other place I’ve seen a speculation on the fighter mode is Robotech Research, an RPG site. Their drawings of it’s fighter mode are different, and do give it a Beta like quality. So we have different conflicting fan speculations on the subject. ;)
For the record, that's my speculative fighter mode and drawing at RobotechResearch.com
(I'm moving the links I originally included to a seperate post to keep this post from being distorted by the url's excessive length).
As for it being "an RPG site", the uRRG is a really detailed glossary for their fanfic Robotech: Objective Reflex Point. And while the core information in the uRRG's entries were the basis for RT.com's mecha entries if you compare the two you will notice a great deal was omitted and what remained further edited.
IINM=If I'm Not Mistaken
Maybe those cannons are mounted inside intakes. I hope they close them when they fire those guns
As for the feet cover idea, I doubt there are Alpha feet under there as Alpha feet are quite bulky and spread out, especially it's big protruding toe.
IINM, all Alphas are now listed as -6's, though the letter designation keeps changing. As for why the Beta has both a -7 and -9 designation, well that was an attempt to explain the apparent contradiction between the Beta in the Sentinels OVA and it apparently being a new mecha in TNG (20 years later).
BTW, all of the Robotech numerical designations used previously and now are post series adaptations and/or inventions. IIRC, none of the veritechs or any mecha for that matter in the tv series was ever given a numerical designation on screen. Well except for the SDF-1 and maybe the VF-1's. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 18, 2004 - 12:36:00 PM
Edited on: August 18, 2004 - 12:44:42 PM
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The speculative Condor fighter mode (mentioned
above) designed and drawn by me can be seen
on the following pages:
http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/mecha/ref/veritech/vf_5_condor/vf_5_Condor_Fighter.html
http://www.rtsurfer.com/condor.htm | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 19, 2004 - 10:24:06 AM
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I don't follow, in the instance of the comic the "Battloid" comment is a couple of lines later as part of the same conversation as the "couldn't spare any transformable veritch mecha for us".
Hypothetically lets say the CONDOR is akin to the VF-1’s ABS for an Alpha. The VF-1ABS could not transform without jettisoning the armor packages. In fact if you look at the VF-1ABS there is very little to ID it as a VF-1 (head, hands and feet only, and I did build/still have a model of the ABS).
Now if Lisa didn’t call the VF-1ABS a Veritech, then it stands to reason that other mecha using the system (or similar) may not be considered Veritechs when employing the system. And the pilot of one did say going to guardian, perhaps he was going to “remove” the ABS to transform but couldn’t because he was shot down. (I think that’s twice now a mecha is going to transform in the comics and wasn’t able to, haven’t read L&W)
Then again the comics do appear to contradict themselves here, but that is nothing new. ;)
How so? I noticed there is a slight difference of perspection in the two views and their is an apparently depth inconsistancy between them in the chest in relation to the placement of the shoulder/arm.
That reminds me about you earlier comments concerning knees. While the Alpha and Beta's knees aren't really all that different, if you compare their knees it does appear the Condor's is more like the Beta's than Alpha's.
The lower legs look like angular Alpha legs in the front perspective, with their side launchers. From the rear perspective the legs look like the smoother Beta’s.
The Knees, I didn’t mean the knees specifically, but the appearance of knee guards (can’t think of the proper term). They are mounted on the lower leg and reach up to offer some protection to the knee joint. The Alpha’s have it, the Beta’s don’t. That makes the Condor Alpha like. (The VF-1 is like the Beta in this regard, but with the ABS on they have them).
Maybe those cannons are mounted inside intakes. I hope they close them when they fire those guns
Aren’t they energy weapons though? In space it really doesn’t matter (nothing to draw in really except vacuum). I suppose when they are fired the intakes could close just before they are fired and re-open after.
As for the feet cover idea, I doubt there are Alpha feet under there as Alpha feet are quite bulky and spread out, especially it's big protruding toe.
I’m not arguing that the Condor is an accepted Alpha fighter in an ABS suit, but an earlier model Alpha in an ABS. And we know that parts of the Alpha have changed over its evolution. Compare the Shadow Drone to pervious Alpha models in Battloid mode; it has a radically different head, shoulder/upper arm assembly, feet, and “hands”.
So why couldn’t an earlier model Alpha have different styling like the S-Drone in some of the problem areas (I won’t even try to fit the “head/snout” of the Condor in this regard other than trying to see it as an ABS module)?
IINM, all Alphas are now listed as -6's, though the letter designation keeps changing. As for why the Beta has both a -7 and -9 designation, well that was an attempt to explain the apparent contradiction between the Beta in the Sentinels OVA and it apparently being a new mecha in TNG (20 years later).
Yes all the Alphas found in the RPG are now listed as –6 models (along with one the RPG people think was a HEAVILY modified VF-1). Why couldn’t the Beta seen in Sentinels OVA be considered a prototype or the A model (that was shelved) and replaced with a B model for Mars Division and another model for Shadow equipped versions?
The USAF B-1B was originally a high & low altitude bomber (A model), but was cancelled in development. When it was resurrected it was given the B designation and made into a low & fast. Though there is no reason it couldn’t be given the –9 either (YF-18 to F/A-18). Real world precedent for both options exist.
For the record, that's my speculative fighter mode and drawing at RobotechResearch.com
Nice drawing. Why does the cockpit have to slide back/out like that between modes?
How did the uRRG come to its fighter mode rendition of the “Condor”? To me it looks like they used a CADD program to create the “Condor” in Battloid and they tried to rearrange the pieces to get a fighter mode.
As for it being "an RPG site", the uRRG is a really detailed glossary for their fanfic Robotech: Objective Reflex Point. And while the core information in the uRRG's entries were the basis for RT.com's mecha entries if you compare the two you will notice a great deal was omitted and what remained further edited.
I wasn’t describing the uRRG as an RPG site, only Robotech Research (as their data is presented using the RPG format). I am aware that the uRRG entries form the basis for the Infopedia.
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 19, 2004 - 3:57:25 PM
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Well if you get right down to it the uRRG is a set of personal RPG data and stats. But that's not the reason I explained what the uRRG was-- many people go there or see links from it here and think because it has so much data (that is presented in what appears to be a complete and authoritive way) that it is the unlimate authoritive RT source. And the fact that the core of RT.com is very similar (for good reason) leads many to believe it is an expansion of what's here. I'm not saying the uRRG is trying to mislead anyone because they clearly say what their site is and how it came into existance in the about pages.
...Robotech Research, an RPG site.
And
Not that the RPG should be relied on for accurate information.
When you posted earlier you noted Robotech Research was a RPG site (which it is, many informative RT sites are for gaming purposes), then later in your post you place the accuracy of the RPG in question. I'm not saying you were attempting to discredit Robotech Research and an image on it by association, but the reality is the RPG has a lot of inaccurate data in it and many think of them as a lessor or flawed source (and I believe is even described as such on the uRRG).
I think what you're precieving as a difference in the front and aft views of the legs is an optical illusion cause by two things.
http://www.rtsurfer.com/images/condor_compare.JPG
1) The front perspective shows the left leg turned out and shown head on while both are parallel (and more comparable to straight leg) in the aft perspective. and 2) #1 shows us that the interior of the legs is apparently more sloped (on the front side) and angelar like the Alpha's legs with launchers while the outside is more uniform (front and back) and smooth/flat.
That's how I percieve the apparent difference in the views.
About the Beta (and all RT) desinations, I realize in real life aircraft sometime change desnigations and I don't have a problem with RT craft doing the same thing over their developmental and operational life. HG has been inconsistant with how they name and number RT craft and keep changing their minds. They still don't have a uniform system for developing names and designations. If the Beta is going to be kept from the 2022 appearance (Sent OVA) and people feel its existance needs rationalizing I'm all for giving it an "A" or a "YF-" but to give it two completely different numbers espeically when there's not many to work with to begin with since they placed them so close in order with virtually no gaps left for craft that was developed but never entered service and/or we don't know about.
Nice drawing. Why does the cockpit have to slide back/out like that between modes?
Thx, I do need to redraw it with cleaner lines and less lean to the perspective.
Do you mean the intake blocks sliding forward (between fighter and guardian mode) or when I retract the snout for what I guess I'd consider a "full" battloid mode?
Well I suppose the backs of the intake blocks could push out to allow the wings to rotate and lift up.
I think the main reason(s) was because with the nose sticking out it makes it seem long and spinly with little tiny wings and a big gap between the legs (when up). Yes I know the gap vanishes if you rotate the legs on their side like a Alpha, which I tried and just couldn't get to look right.
I should point out that when I try to retcon a craft or figure out how it transforms (as in the case of the VF-X4/XVF-4/YF-4/YVF-4) I try to incorporate existing seams and details.
As for the intake blocks sliding forward, I got the idea while trying to resolve the length to width and leg gap problem I mentioned above. I noticed there was a double line/seam? behind the intake blocks on the lower body section. Also noticed the snout had structures hanging off on both sides along the bottom. These structures run it's full length into the area above the previously mentioned seam line and behind the intake blocks. I came up with the idea the intake blocks were on a sliding hinge that fit in that seam and hangs from the snout's lengthwise protruding structure. Then when they slide forward they leave the wings free to rotate out and up.
Also, something I haven't drawn which is another possible option for a "full" battloid mode is the snout rotating down against the chest and hips. That lengthwise structure I mentioned previously does sorta look like it could be a rotating hinge for the snout at the point when the intakes are positioned in the lineart. That hoodlike structure on top could also be consealing a Betalike head if the snout does stow as I've just described.
How did the uRRG come to its fighter mode rendition of the “Condor”?...
Someone from uRRG would have to answer that.
Since the guardian mode is missing from their animation it's difficult to make a fair comparison with the line art mode. I don't recall if I've ever seen their rendering of the guardian mode or not.
There appear to be some little inconsistances between the line art and their fighter mode though some of that may be the shapes weren't rendered in detail to those of the line art. The most obvious thing that looks off is the wing. How does the wing as it's presented in guardian mode/line art end up looking like they have it in their fighter mode as there is no side seam on the intake block and the wing isn't connect behind the intake block in their fighter mode. Maybe their fighter mode would work but when I tried to reproduce the same basic configuration on paper it didn't quite come out that way. | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 19, 2004 - 4:03:42 PM
Edited on: August 19, 2004 - 4:12:07 PM
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The Knees, I didn’t mean the knees specifically, but the appearance of knee guards
(can’t think of the proper term). They are mounted on the lower leg and reach up to
offer some protection to the knee joint.
Varies in the animation (notice the second is somewhat
Condor like):
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture_archive/Mospeada/Mecha/Veritech_Beta/large/Veritech_Beta_28_large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture_archive/Mospeada/Mecha/Veritech_Beta/large/Veritech_Beta_40_large.jpg | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 19, 2004 - 4:19:25 PM
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*There's also a little easter egg (likely an AE) in the second capture (in my last post), something apparently carried over from the pre-production Mospeada designs that ended up on the Beta in a couple of it's later series appearances... Think "Wolfe" in Eulogy | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 20, 2004 - 9:24:13 AM
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Some of the RPG sites though attempt to fix the errors made by Palladium, I’m not saying that they are wrong or in error with their fixes, just the RPG itself is in accurate on things. Robotech Research being one of the sites to fix those errors, I know I’ve seen other attempts at aspects (there is an article on how to customize the REF VTs to be more accurate to what is seen) using the Palladium System and using other systems also.
Though with the RPG sites, at least with game specific information compromises are usually made for game balance. PT from the uRRG uses the example that the body armor of the REF is equal to a Zentraedi Battlepod (both have 50MDC). Though I tend to look at comparing a Cyclone to a Logan (IIRC the pint sized Cyclone has as much or more armor than the larger and heavier Logan in the main body. Cyclone is under 500lbs and 150-200MDC depending on model, the Logan is several tons and 150MDC, though it has an extra 150 for the pilot and x2 300MDC wing/shields). Then you have some fan created mecha units which…
If you look at Line Art for the Beta though, it really can’t have those guards as the knee folds forward like on the VF-1 when in Gaurdian mode. The Alpha’s don’t appear to have their knees/legs work that way in G, IIRC that or the guard is mobile | |
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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