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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: What defines weather a Veritech is in G or B mode?
Started on: August 24, 2004 - 9:12:48 AM
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While discussing the idea that the Condor may be a VFA-6 
Rtsurfer pointed out that he thinks the Condor may be in Gaurdian mode.
However, in the infopeida’s Logan entry it says that the Logan possess a Battloid mode and not a Gaurdian mode, contrary to popular belief because of its knee articulation.
The second mode is often mistaken for a Guardian - however, despite its similar appearance, this mode is categorized as a full Battloid. In a Veritech's Guardian mode, the leg joints are concave "bird legs," whereas Battloids stand fully erect and have humanoid bipedal locomotion, like the Logan. In addition, all other Veritech Fighters retain their wings in Guardian, whereas the transformed Logan folds them out of the way as do other Battloids.
The idea that other VTs retain their wings is not accurate though, as the Alpha’s fold up along the body of the aircraft. Different from the Logan, but still not retained for use. However the “bird legs” is accurate for the:
VF-1
VHT-1
VFA-6 (possibly)
VFB-7/9
The AGACs has no G mode as it possess two vehicle configurations (Jet & Helicopter). The Logan is thought to be in Battloid Mode. That accounts for the seen Robotech VTs, though it may not apply toward the units thought to be VTs.
So what defines weather a mecha is in G (Guaridan-style) or B (Battloid-style) modes?
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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Response 1 of 12  |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 24, 2004 - 4:08:12 PM
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The Guardian mode YF-4 in From the Stars comic mini (VF-X4 model in To The Stars) in this creator concept art has bird legs but folded wings.
http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/art/kawamori_vfx4_gerwalk.jpg
*Note this was a rough design and the actual finished design of the mode (if ever done) may be different.
The VHT (Spartas) has bird legs though it operates backwards in Guardian/Cannon mode. It doesn't have wings though it does store the hover pads while parked and in Guardian.
The VFH-10 (AGAC/Ajax) does have a Guardian mode in the designs though it's never seen used onscreen. It's a distinctive variant of the fighter mode where the arms and upper engine noticably shift forward and the rotors deploy for lift. The infopedia calls it a "Helicopter" rather than Guardian mode. I suspect that's because it doesn't deploy the legs and therefore doesn't meet RT.com's concept of what a Guardian mode is.
The VFA-6 does have bird legs in Guardian mode though it's not as obvious as on the others. And as mentioned above it does fold the wings, which would seem to violate part of RT.com's definition for Guardian mode.
And finally the VF-8 Logan, in Guardian mode it doesn't have bird legs but does fold up the wings.
As for why I call it a Guardian rather than a Battloid:
First, Marie calls it that while it's transforming in Volunteers,
Marie: Oh no you don't. (Logan begins to transform) Changing to Guardian mode. (Close-up shots of it's transformation)
*In fairness, I should note that Marie says she's going to Guardian mode with the AGAC/Ajax in Dana's Story then it's shown in Battloid mode.
And second, the OSM (original source material - specifically TIA#10: Southern Cross) mentions it's "Gerwalk mode" (Guardian in RT) more than once.
I suggested the Condor (as seen in the flashback and line art) may be in Guardian configuration because it has the snout. That is the SINGLE feature ALL veritechs in Guardian mode seem to posses -- the cockpit/nose is horizontal/diagonal.
If that is the case the Condor may or may not have a full Battloid mode, I suggested in the other thread two ways it could visually achieve such mode.
I get the impression that Tommy only made two modes for it and they will be Battloid (the series/line art mode) and some change in form for a Guardian one. I suspect he drew it with bird legs and wings deployed. I ask him the other night about posting his Condor mode designs as he promised months ago but he won't yet for some unknown reason.
One last thing, the Condor appears to have a spotlike structure on the lower tip of it's snout, at about the same location as the head in fighter and guardian modes on the AGAC/Ajax. This might be a head/sensor or just as well could be an actual spotlight, an intake, or a weapon port. I can imagine how it could become part of a head in a Battloid mode but would likely be pretty awkward getting it there. | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 28, 2004 - 9:17:24 AM
Edited on: August 28, 2004 - 9:22:32 AM
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The VHT (Spartas) has bird legs though it operates backwards in Guardian/Cannon mode. It doesn't have wings though it does store the hover pads while parked and in Guardian.
I would have though it obvious that the VHT lacked wings.  That's why I didn't mention it with the wing issue.
The VFH-10 (AGAC/Ajax) does have a Guardian mode in the designs though it's never seen used onscreen. It's a distinctive variant of the fighter mode where the arms and upper engine noticably shift forward and the rotors deploy for lift. The infopedia calls it a "Helicopter" rather than Guardian mode. I suspect that's because it doesn't deploy the legs and therefore doesn't meet RT.com's concept of what a Guardian mode is.
And all this time I thought it would have been just a regular Helicopter that could transform into a jet and humanoid robot.  I don't think I've heard that about the 'chopper mode with the arms. Or could this mean that there are 4 modes for the AGAC?
Anyway, rtsurfer I was asking more in a general sense for what defines weather a mecha is in Battloid or Gaurdian mode. Let’s use the “Condor” for an example is it in Battloid or Gaurdian mode?
Well if we compare its appearance to the VF-1 or the Beta, it doesn’t appear to have a match. Why, well sure it has the snout feature, but the legs are deployed wrong. There are no wings. So one might assume it’s in Battloid mode. However, if we compare it to just a Logan we can find it looks very similar in overall design/placement* (and I tend to think of it as going to G).
So we have two possible interpretations. And with the Condor there isn’t any audio to confirm or deny either position. Though the Invasion Comics seem to suggest that it’s in B.
In TRM saga, we have 2 instances of audio overlay talking about Veritechs but the units in question never transform. (The uRRG’s Sylphid and the other hovertank IINM you pointed it out some time ago) Both of them are easy to classify in modes based on appearance (fighter only for the Sylphid and Battloid for the VHT).
Let’s assume in Shadow Force there is a new mecha seen in the opening/closing credits that peeks interest, but isn’t shown for a while in the series. Let’s also assume that the Infopedia is updated as often as it is now (once in a blue moon sound right?). We see this thing transform into something that doesn’t match the typical idea of a Battloid (ala Condor or the Infopedia/uRRG idea of the Logan being a Battloid). So we try to decide is this new VT in Battloid or Gaurdian?
What criteria to we use to define weather a mecha is in which configuration? I would think vehicle modes would be rather easy. But there are bound to be instances where modes overlap (Condor and the Logan). And how much of the criteria must be met to qualify (again pointing to the Condor and Logan).
*Hey that’s an idea, maybe the “Condor” is really a late model Logan … just kidding
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 28, 2004 - 9:31:47 AM
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sorry about the double post it go sent by accident and by the time i got back in, there wasn't much time. 1/2 of it was spent at least waiting for it to load.
I suggested the Condor (as seen in the flashback and line art) may be in Guardian configuration because it has the snout. That is the SINGLE feature ALL veritechs in Guardian mode seem to posses -- the cockpit/nose is horizontal/diagonal.
The idea of a snout certainly works, but does it apply to the VHT? Where is it's snout? I don't think the cannons count here.
If that is the case the Condor may or may not have a full Battloid mode, I suggested in the other thread two ways it could visually achieve such mode.
Not saying your wrong, but the Comics seem to suggest its in Battloid mode.
One last thing, the Condor appears to have a spotlike structure on the lower tip of it's snout, at about the same location as the head in fighter and guardian modes on the AGAC/Ajax. This might be a head/sensor or just as well could be an actual spotlight, an intake, or a weapon port. I can imagine how it could become part of a head in a Battloid mode but would likely be pretty awkward getting it there.
I noticed it to, and pretty much came to the same possiblities you did for it's function.
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 28, 2004 - 12:35:20 PM
Edited on: August 28, 2004 - 12:38:29 PM
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I would have though it obvious that the VHT lacked wings. That's why I didn't mention it with the wing issue.
It does have the deployable hover pad which appear to be distinctive to transport mode, in essent it's "wings". As I pointed out before:
It doesn't have wings though it does store the hover pads while parked and in Guardian.
And all this time I thought it would have been just a regular Helicopter that could transform into a jet and humanoid robot. I don't think I've heard that about the 'chopper mode with the arms. Or could this mean that there are 4 modes for the AGAC?
So what's your point? It does have a 3rd mode which essentually is the equavalent of a Guardian mode in function (for most VT's anyway) if not in look. And while I didn't mention it here, I don't see why it couldn't deploy the arms much as other Guardians though it's not shown that way in the designs and would probably look quite odd. And if you want to start getting technical about the distinctions between modes some of the VTs could have over 1/2 dozen as deploying the arms and legs in Fighter and Guardian modes is apparently optional for VF-1's and Alpha's.
Anyway, rtsurfer I was asking more in a general sense for what defines weather a mecha is in Battloid or Gaurdian mode. Let’s use the “Condor” for an example is it in Battloid or Gaurdian mode?
Sure, ask what defines the difference between B and G modes then ignore all of them that apply the the Condor per say. If that's what this is all about why not have kept it in your Condor thread
The thread is called Subject: What defines weather a Veritech is in G or B mode?, so that's what I was attempting to do, explore all of the none examples.
Well if we compare its appearance to the VF-1 or the Beta, it doesn’t appear to have a match. Why, well sure it has the snout feature, but the legs are deployed wrong. There are no wings. So one might assume it’s in Battloid mode....
Don't forget the Alpha folds up it's wings part of the time in Guardian mode (while the arms are deployed). And that the VHT doesn't have wings at in in this mode although it folds up it's hover pads. While both the Guardian and Battloid modes of the AGAC retain wings. So clearly wings are not a distinction between B & G modes.
...However, if we compare it to just a Logan we can find it looks very similar in overall design/placement* (and I tend to think of it as going to G).
So we have two possible interpretations. And with the Condor there isn’t any audio to confirm or deny either position. Though the Invasion Comics seem to suggest that it’s in B.
Well my motto is when in doubt throw Tommy's comics out
As for the Logan and Condor looking very similar in overall design placement, I pointed this out in a similarities between the 3 series thread at RDF-HQ some time ago.
*Hey that’s an idea, maybe the “Condor” is really a late model Logan … just kidding
Well not decended from the Logan but it's likely they were either competing designs or based on the same design requirements.
I suggested the Condor (as seen in the flashback and line art) may be in Guardian configuration because it has the snout. That is the SINGLE feature ALL veritechs in Guardian mode seem to posses -- the cockpit/nose is horizontal/diagonal.
The idea of a snout certainly works, but does it apply to the VHT? Where is it's snout? I don't think the cannons count here.
I was assuming the snout is a cockpit/nose when I said "That is the SINGLE feature ALL veritechs in Guardian mode seem to posses -- the cockpit/nose is horizontal/diagonal." In the case of VHT, it would be the cockpit. Although it still retains the transport's nose only it's now on the aft end as the VHT reorients 180 degrees between it's fighter and guardian mode equavalents.
Not saying your wrong, but the Comics seem to suggest its in Battloid mode.
Well yeah, because RT.com believes it is because of the definition they (or was it the uRRG) came up with for what defines Guardian mode. A definition that is obviously flawed as it doesn't apply to ALL veritech mecha. I'm not saying there is a single absolute definition but it certainly isn't the one in the Logan entry.
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: It didn't update with the corrected blockquote coding before time had expired.
Posted on: August 28, 2004 - 12:52:05 PM
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It should return to normal indentions here:
...So one might assume it’s in Battloid mode...."
Don't forget the Alpha folds up it's wings part of the time in Guardian mode... | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 28, 2004 - 6:54:11 PM
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Art of the AGAC/Ajax with arms deployed in Guardian/Helicopter mode
http://www.rtsurfer.com/_images/Ajax.jpg | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 31, 2004 - 10:10:19 AM
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Well my motto is when in doubt throw Tommy's comics out
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if at some point in the future that’s what HG does with them.
I’m not sure I completely follow your idea on cockpit placement. Do you mean the entire “module” or the interior? I think it’s obvious though that the interior of the module does rotate to stay level in battloid mode. If you mean the “module” then you do have a point.
However, with the “Condor” (since it was the example) do we really know the cockpit is in the snout protrusion? It could be in the chest or farther back on the snout to rest on the shoulders in the normal head location. If that’s the case it would be more Battloid like than Gaurdian like in cockpit placement, though the only other mecha to have the cockpit in the “head” is the Logan (we seem to agree it’s a G, though others think it’s a B). The VHT is the only VT that has the cockpit within the body in its G mode.
I only picked the “Condor” because it was the first to come to mind; I suppose I could have picked something else like a Macross/Sentinels Destroid. The Condor and Logan don’t appear to fit nicely into either as they retain characteristics that are B-like and G-like. They have B mode legs in comparison to other VTs in B, but they have a top like area similar to a G mode on the fighter VT’s (let’s drop the VHT & Cyclones for now, as they are ground VTs and all the others are aerospace VTs) with regard to the nose.
I’ve been thinking that perhaps another qualifier may be the “waist” region of the mecha. All of the other VTs appear to have limited/no ability to twist at the waist in G. IIRC, the Logan’s design doesn’t appear to allow this (IIRC it doesn’t do a twist at the waist at any time). This though would preclude the “condor” though; it meets the requirements for all the other VTs (including the VHT).
I think I see what the uRRG/infopeida definition of G was attempting, that there needed to be more than one qualifier (though 2 doesn’t cut it in my opinion). I wouldn’t think of the AGAC’s chopper mode as a G, because it was more vehicle like in operational profile. I also tend to think of the AGAC as a bi-modal mecha, with an “X-wing” vehicle mode and a battloid. And like I said, this is the first time I’ve heard of the arms being deployable for it out side of B.
So I guess what we should be doing is looking at characteristics that all of the accepted G modes have, and see if we can come up with a list of criteria that will allow the Logan to return to being a G, and open the possibility that the Condor is in G also. To be considered a G, the mode should meet a majority of the requirements without any one requirement being a make/break case.
Common Features to Accepted G mode VTs
-The cockpit/snout feature
-Cannot twist at the waist
-The “bird legs” issue from the Infopedia/uRRG
-Retain the features of their vehicle mode clearly, this may be limited to appearance though and not functionality (VHT)
-none have a humanoid head on top
Any other features?
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 31, 2004 - 11:11:09 AM
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Yeah I meant "module".
True, we don't know where the cockpit is on the Condor, unfortunately it was a throw away mecha with almost no material provided for it's design and features are not clearly indicated in the line art.
The arms deployed in Helicopter/Guardian mode is an image manipulation by me, don't know whether anyone had considered doing that before or not. This mode is tricky because technically it doesn't exist as we never see it or hear about it in the series. And AFAIK the one drawing is all that exist detailing it's appear and function. I started to wonder the other day if it would be possible to deploy functional arms in that mode, if it was or could be more than JUST a helicopter. I had tenatively decided it should be able to then when you mentioned the arms I decided to try/do it with the only existing image of that mode.
I posted the images at RDF-HQ and have been discussing the pros and cons there, I'll post the link seperately so as not to stretch this post.
I wonder if the Japanese creators (for anime in general as RT is 3 series) have a standard for distinguishing between various modes or decided on a case by case basis.
I think in principle the general idea of Guardian mode is/was to retain the basic fighter/transport shape and function while giving it additional manuvering capability and/or dexterity by adding legs and/or arms.
Something I noticed yesterday in RI #4, the Condor appears to have started transforming but the only visible change I can see at that point is Tommy moved the body by 90 degrees relative to the legs/standing position. The person I was chatting with when I noticed it suggested it was merely a reflex to impacting the barrier and likely hadn't begun to transform yet. I'll include a link to the scan of those comic frames in the next post as well. | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: August 31, 2004 - 11:12:32 AM
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http://p081.ezboard.com/frdfhqcommunicationscenterfrm35.showMessage?topicID=374.topic
http://www.rtsurfer.com/newcomics/CondorGuardian_RI4-10.jpg | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: September 1, 2004 - 10:15:58 AM
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I would think the Japense creators do have a definition in mind, at least for each series when they are creating the technical aspects of it. So what may define a Gaurdian mode in Macross may be different than SC or GCM, even though the same studio worked on it. Mac. & GCM appear to have had similar concepts if we compare the VF-1/Alpha various form appearances. (Wild thought here, but could the Beta/Tread’s G, be like the ½ G used by the VF-1/Alpha, meaning it has a 4th mode like they do, just that its never seen/used?)
I noticed the "Condor" change in Invasion and just thought that the “Condor” was increasing speed and to do so needed to strike a “superman flying”-like pose to do so. There is another frame on the same page of it firing up with the gunpod. It also has the advantage of making them a smaller profile from forces launched from the hive and approaching them head on.
Now, this next part may belong in the other thread, but it sort of applies here to I guess. If the Condor is transforming to G, like the text suggests they are about to do, then it may follow the Alpha transformation sequence more than the Beta. Consider transforming an MPC Alpha from the perspective of looking down at the head in Battloid to Gaurdian: the shoulders would rotate up and we can all agree that the shoulders contain air-intakes. If it was a Beta, then moving like that would not be the best as the unit would still have to re-orientate themselves after transforming, the Alpha wouldn’t. Which matches what we see in the comics in so far as pre-positioning.
This may also give credit to my idea of the Condor being an ABS equipped Alpha, as it would allow all of the extra modules to fall away (the odd module on the back could be jettisoned) using gravity if the explosive bolts didn’t do their job properly.
I’ll post on the AGAC later.
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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rtsurfer
Rank: Corporal
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Subject: ...
Posted on: September 1, 2004 - 11:54:24 AM
Edited on: September 1, 2004 - 11:58:43 AM
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... So what may define a Gaurdian mode in Macross may be different than SC or GCM, even though the same studio worked on it....
If this is/were the case then the argument could be made there is no single (or group of) standard(s) for a Guardian in the Robotech universe, that perhaps the mecha are being built by different contractors or under different developmental guidelines.
(Wild thought here, but could the Beta/Tread’s G, be like the ½ G used by the VF-1/Alpha, meaning it has a 4th mode like they do, just that its never seen/used?)
Heh, I was wondering just the same thing while responding looking at TNG animation and caps yesterday for a post in the RDF-HQ Ajax thread.
There is another frame on the same page of it firing up with the gunpod.
The only other frames I see of the Condor are on the previous page, in superman flight, and the next page, one of it exploding and another of it laying on top of the barrier.
I think the one your referring to as firing up is the upper right one I've include in the linked image, and I think it's actually firing forward as it approaches the barrier. This change in form/position of the Condor, the awkward bend in the arm (that makes it look like it's now up) and the 90 degree movement of the legs is what I was interpreting as beginning to transform. It appears that what Tommy has in mind is to simply reorient the legs to a 90 degree angle beneath the lower torso as the upper torso also turns up/back 90 degrees and becomes parrallel to it (probably on top as appossed to in front of).
Also, it appears the wings have been slightly downsized and reshaped, now looking more like covers or flaps.
BTW, isn't that shattered glass raining from the explosion to the right side of the snout (and arm) on the next page -- perhaps supporting my earlier speculation concerning there appearing to be glass windows running down the upper sides of the snout?
One other thing that's either odd or sloppy, the feet don't have thrusters in them. In fact there isn't a thruster anywhere on the Condors (in RI comics). They are magically floating in superman poses, as are the Cyclone Armors which do retain their thrusters although there is no visable evidence of them operating during this part of the comics. | |
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ShadowLogan
Rank: Master Chief Sgt
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Subject: ...
Posted on: September 1, 2004 - 12:52:46 PM
Edited on: September 1, 2004 - 12:57:03 PM
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I think the one your referring to as firing up is the upper right one I've include in the linked image, and I think it's actually firing forward as it approaches the barrier.
Yes that is the one, i missed the knee in the shot, but it does give the impression that the top of the snout is forward when doing so.
Its difficult to tell if it is glass, as the color is similiar to the snout. Some if it may be glass, but I don't think it has to be the canopy. Optical sensors tend to have transparent coverings to.
This is pics of the MAVERICK missile (IR guided IIRC)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-65-DFST9207675_JPG.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/docs/atflir1.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-65-dvic445.jpg
This is a pic of a FLIR (forward looking infrard)sensor pod:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/docs/atflir1.jpg
Concerning the lack of thrusters in use. Well we know the new comics are full of problems. Tack on another one. | |
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Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters. | | | |
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