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kingofpain26  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: debate revisited: The Size of Unicron. 
Started on: August 4, 2006 - 3:24:46 PM
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Response 20 of 52 

RoyVF-1S  
Rank: Sergeant

Subject: MMM... 
Posted on: August 8, 2006 - 7:48:55 AM
Edited on: August 8, 2006 - 7:50:10 AM


It works both ways. During the movie, when the Decepticons were withdrawing from Autobot City, Astrotrain transformed from a robot (the size of Starscream and Megatron) to a train (large enough to hold the retreating Decepticons) then to a space shuttle and took off for Cybertron.


The Constructicons also combined to form Devastator, whilst inside Astrotrain, this is proof that the size difference between robot and vehicle modes are not always small amounts....


So what it will really boil down too is Which takes precedence, Comics or Cartoon/Movies?

Really this would have to be a statment from hasbro not a writer. Does anyone know what Hasbros official stance is?


If you look back at one of my previous posts, according to Wikipedia, no specific size was ever given when Unicron first appeared in either the comics or the movie, so any size given by Hasbro now would be something that they have just thought up and not originally what it was intended, to find out the dimensions of unicron exactly, someone would have to consult his original designer, the person who initially had the idea to create a huge planet sized transformer...

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- "I'll be hunting for a pineapple salad" - Roy Fokker

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Nicholos Caudillo  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Just a thought 
Posted on: August 8, 2006 - 10:47:14 AM

Maybe Unicron was inspired by Marvel's Galactus. The Marvel moniker is in the credits of the orig. movie

"It shall be as you leave it." Shockwave to Megatron
"Something stinks around here. And I intend to find out!" Leonard to Emerson before the Pioneer mission launch.
D.O.L.

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RoyVF-1S  
Rank: Sergeant

Subject: ... 
Posted on: August 8, 2006 - 12:40:06 PM

Marvel Comics first published Transformers comics between 1984 and 1991, it ran for 80 issues, then there were the 12 issues of Generation 2 in 1993

- RT.com's Jedi Knight Ohwi-Want Cannoli made famous in the great Clone Zone Wars.

- "I'll be hunting for a pineapple salad" - Roy Fokker

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BanesCurse  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: hmmm... 
Posted on: August 9, 2006 - 9:22:03 AM




to find out the dimensions of unicron exactly, someone would have to consult his original designer, the person who initially had the idea to create a huge planet sized transformer...

Yes, and that would be a now, very old japanese man who worked on "Fight: Super Robot Life!"

But to address something our 'dear' enlightened friend Dire said, I believe Grimlock, Sludge and Snarl become smaller in Robot form. And for that matter, as proven in many episodes, comics, and the movie, the Dinobots are STRONGER in their alternate forms.
Which is just like Unicron, who is invincible in Planet form.

But getting back to the point at hand, Since Super Robot Life's character designer for 'Unicron' based him off the planet Saturn (thats the 6th planet from SOL, our Sun, btw), then Unicrons general size, and thus Cybertron, is roughly equal to that of Saturn.
Want some points to back that up?
1. a race of millions of 15m tall (average size estimate) robots evolving on a rock no bigger in diameter then 1-2 thousand kilometres seems pretty unplausable.
2. in the only episodes with Cybertron in orbit around Earth, we only see Cybertron from Earth's point of view. This is NOT, therefore, allowing us to view the actual distance between Earth and Cybertron...no depth perception.
3. Cybertron has millions of kilometres of subway passages underneith it. Considering how fast those tubes go, and that Swoop, Spike and Carly all needed to get only a quarter of the way around Cybertron, the distance they travelled would have made them circle Cybertron 6 times if Cybertron was only 1-2 thousand kilometres in diametre.

Now to add additional notes to my points, lets not forget that 15 metres is NOT the size of all transformers, and that Omega Sentinals are vastly bigger then a 15 meter tall Transformer.
The fact that Transformer handheld weaponry could breach earths atmosphere to shoot things like Shuttles, Comets, and Cybertron while on earth indicates that they didn't build there weapons for "short range" fire fights. This lends more credability that Cybertron is vastly larger.

But hey, why not? If your willing to disagree with my points, then you would have to look at an equally stupid point:
"The Zentradi evolved on Dolza's command base."

Which is the basic equivalent that your saying.

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BlaqChaos  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: ... 
Posted on: August 9, 2006 - 10:19:40 AM


But to address something our 'dear' enlightened friend Dire said, I believe Grimlock, Sludge and Snarl become smaller in Robot form. And for that matter, as proven in many episodes, comics, and the movie, the Dinobots are STRONGER in their alternate forms.
Which is just like Unicron, who is invincible in Planet form.
And before someone raises the question of "Then why would he transform before destroying Cybertron?" the answer is simple. When he eats a world, it takes only a few minutes. But he wanted to savor the destruction of Cybertron, and give Galvatron plenty of time to be helpless as he tore the planet apart with his bare hands.

"Nothing’s difficult, everything’s a challenge. Through adversity to the stars. To the last plane, to the last bullet to the last men to the last minute, we fight! We fight!! We fight!!! WE FIGHT!! WE FIGHT!!!"

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BanesCurse  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: ... 
Posted on: August 9, 2006 - 11:03:34 PM



More so,
Unlike the new TF shows, the G1 Transformers of Cybertron had a RELIGION!and the fact that their creator, there GOD, slept deep within there world, and watching there Devil, the Chaos Lord, Slowly rip apart not just there Homeworld, but there GOD, would morally destroy even Megatron.
So, Unicron's reason for transforming is simple, as Blaq said, Unicron wanted to completly conquer the children of Primus.

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Dire Wolf  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: 
Posted on: August 10, 2006 - 4:30:18 AM


And before someone raises the question of "Then why would he transform before destroying Cybertron?" the answer is simple. When he eats a world, it takes only a few minutes. But he wanted to savor the destruction of Cybertron, and give Galvatron plenty of time to be helpless as he tore the planet apart with his bare hands.

And we all saw how well that plan went....

But given the drop in size and him compaired to Cyberton we can clearly see that the Movie/Cartoon planet is NOT the size of Saturn. When a 5km robot can stand and rake across the planet, it's not that big.


But hey, why not? If your willing to disagree with my points, then you would have to look at an equally stupid point:
"The Zentradi evolved on Dolza's command base."


Side note, they didn't exactly evlove, they were made. So they could easily have been created on the fortress. Same can really be said about the Transformer, they don't evolve, they are made(not organic). Meaning that you aren't needing massive populations, as they aren't breeding, or evolving in that sense.

"The warrior who acts out of honour cannot fail. His duty is honour itself. Even his death – if it is honourable – is a great reward and can be no failure, for it has come through duty. Seek honour as you act, therefore, and you will know no fear."

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BanesCurse  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: ... 
Posted on: August 10, 2006 - 11:12:15 AM



Oh goodie, a play-thing!


But given the drop in size and him compaired to Cyberton we can clearly see that the Movie/Cartoon planet is NOT the size of Saturn. When a 5km robot can stand and rake across the planet, it's not that big.

Yes, and due to the American 're-animators' of the show, we have seen many times when sizes dont match up properly.
Yet, due to your insessent nit-picking, you'd expect everything to be done your way. When, even from the Pilot episode to TF, 4km long space cruiser's were only spec's next to Cybertron, and then by the last episode of season 4, you could see Optimus on Cybertron.
Are you gonna nit-pick that? Cause the official Transformer books of almost 10+ years old state the Nemesis at being 4 kilometres in length.


Side note, they didn't exactly evlove, they were made. So they could easily have been created on the fortress. Same can really be said about the Transformer, they don't evolve, they are made(not organic). Meaning that you aren't needing massive populations, as they aren't breeding, or evolving in that sense.

3 words "Yes they did". Id put my full comment, but id get banned for the other 12 words i'd normally add.
Listen to Alpha Trion, "We evolved from the simple machines that served the Quintessons to the gladiators and workers that they used for entertainment and labor. Until the day we rose up against them" ...And thats just from the cartoon series.
If you cant accept techno-evolution, then i suggest you keep out of the debate.

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BlaqChaos  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: What's the world coming to? I'm agreeing with BC! 
Posted on: August 10, 2006 - 11:16:58 AM
Edited on: August 10, 2006 - 11:19:09 AM


Yes, and due to the American 're-animators' of the show, we have seen many times when sizes dont match up properly.
Yet, due to your insessent nit-picking, you'd expect everything to be done your way. When, even from the Pilot episode to TF, 4km long space cruiser's were only spec's next to Cybertron, and then by the last episode of season 4, you could see Optimus on Cybertron.
Are you gonna nit-pick that? Cause the official Transformer books of almost 10+ years old state the Nemesis at being 4 kilometres in length.
To state nothing of the fact that in the movie Unicron's eye was big enough to crash a ship through, yet in the series it was small enough for Starscream to replace on of his eyes with one of Triticon's eye's.


3 words "Yes they did". Id put my full comment, but id get banned for the other 12 words i'd normally add.
Listen to Alpha Trion, "We evolved from the simple machines that served the Quintessons to the gladiators and workers that they used for entertainment and labor. Until the day we rose up against them" ...And thats just from the cartoon series.
If you cant accept techno-evolution, then i suggest you keep out of the debate.
So, is he claiming that machines can't evolve? Hell, evolving machines is a staple of sci-fi. Stargate's Replicators, BSG Cylons, The Matrix's machines, etc.

"Nothing’s difficult, everything’s a challenge. Through adversity to the stars. To the last plane, to the last bullet to the last men to the last minute, we fight! We fight!! We fight!!! WE FIGHT!! WE FIGHT!!!"

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BanesCurse  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: ... 
Posted on: August 10, 2006 - 11:26:58 AM



Thank you Blaq,
And for more spec's on Transformer space cruiser's, please, dont hesitate to ask.

But i did make a good point, saying machines dont evolve is a REALLY stupid thing to say, especially in the case of Transformers (who are more evolved {dare i say} then all of Blaq's aforementioned sci-fi robots).

SPOILER: (select to highlight)

DONT FORGET TO CHECK OUT THE UP-COMMING TRANSFORMER MOVIE!

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kingofpain26  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: ??????!!!! 
Posted on: August 10, 2006 - 3:10:29 PM


But given the drop in size and him compaired to Cyberton we can clearly see that the Movie/Cartoon planet is NOT the size of Saturn. When a 5km robot can stand and rake across the planet, it's not that big.



uh,.. take another look at that guy's hand.

when he raked it across the planet, it effectually took out several MILES! his had was roughly the size of several ROBOT Sized City blocks,.. which could be estimated at roughly the 5 km size youre arguing about.

it also exaserbates the issue of the distorted Cartoon sizes. Showing that either unicron was animated too smal, or the transformers were animated too big (as we see in the many scenes with unicron fighting the decepticons, and having galvatron be than big to be picked up in his fingers, yet the Junkion ship appeard to be much smaller than it actually is.

(BTW, did anyone notice that perceptor and Ultra magnus Was aboard the JUnkion ship when it was destroyed?)

Dark Fin "Sprinkler of Fixins"
""Freedom of speech doesn't protect speech that you like, freedom of speech protects speech that you hate."
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

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MasterKaioShin  
Rank: Master Sergeant

Subject: Well.... 
Posted on: August 10, 2006 - 5:01:17 PM

Who can really say? I would always say that the manga takes precedence over the anime because it is the original version. However, take Omega Supreme, for example. He is yet another Transformer who, by nature, should be so huge because of what he is suppose to be. However, it never fails that he always seems to shrink or grow from one form to the next. This Unicron issue gives me a vivd picture of how to explain this whole discussion. It's like Metroplex transforming into a large planet and returning to "city mode." It really doesn't make sense, but it is interesting to talk about. Hope I was able to help you think about it.

Hey, who knows what would've happened. For all we know, what you did was the best move. Sometimes life's just too uncertain to have regrets.

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Dire Wolf  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: 
Posted on: August 11, 2006 - 6:13:47 AM
Edited on: August 11, 2006 - 6:18:51 AM


So, is he claiming that machines can't evolve? Hell, evolving machines is a staple of sci-fi. Stargate's Replicators, BSG Cylons, The Matrix's machines, etc.

Not as such, just that they don't evolve in a standard sense. They improve. However the point that the population of Transformers would be unable to exist on a small planet is not really true. There is no need for them to ever have had a massive population. A small population COULD exist on a moon sized planet. You don't require large populations, as they don't breed to expand their numbers, or to evolve. Nor do any of the other races you have mentioned(other then maybe the Cylons never followed the show). None of them need large populations to build from, hell the replicators can start from just one IIRC.


when he raked it across the planet, it effectually took out several MILES! his had was roughly the size of several ROBOT Sized City blocks,.. which could be estimated at roughly the 5 km size youre arguing about

Yes which just leads to the altering size again, as that same hand was able to pick up Galvatron, meaning that galvatron would be what? A couple hundred m tall then.


Are you gonna nit-pick that? Cause the official Transformer books of almost 10+ years old state the Nemesis at being 4 kilometres in length.


This would go back to what is canon again. Because
if the only of shows are canon then that doesn't matter what the book says. If both are then that just leads to more inconsitancies. And if just the books are then it might clear up a lot of them, but it is doutful that is the case.

So I guess there is no answer too your orginal question. As Unicron(and cybertron for that matter) change so often and by such drastic amounts that you can't say. I guess you could say anywhere from a couple of kms, to Saturn size. Depending on the source/frame/episode.

"The warrior who acts out of honour cannot fail. His duty is honour itself. Even his death – if it is honourable – is a great reward and can be no failure, for it has come through duty. Seek honour as you act, therefore, and you will know no fear."

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Nicholos Caudillo  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: ANIMATION 
Posted on: August 11, 2006 - 10:37:43 AM

Guys in the Anime community they sometimes warp sizes for DRAMATIC EFFECT!! I mean come on, The simple facts are that in animation, size reference are skewed all the time for the emotional effect. Its a visual 'fact' that Unicron muched a Earth sized planet at the beginning of the movie. Unicron is huge!! You can get away with skewing in animation, its a representation in 2d of 3d objects. Sheesh.




"It shall be as you leave it." Shockwave to Megatron
"Something stinks around here. And I intend to find out!" Leonard to Emerson before the Pioneer mission launch.
D.O.L.

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kingofpain26  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: OK,... 
Posted on: August 11, 2006 - 3:17:20 PM

as far as cannon,.. there are several different sources.

the first being the comic books,.. which in the Generation one case, the Marvel comic books are considered canon for 3 reasons:

1) the comics came first. in early 1984, whereas the cartoon debued in late 1984

2) Bob Budansky, the editor at the time for the comic, was the one who established the personalities, names and Mythos of most of the original Generation 1 Autobots and Decepticons (which was the reason why Ravage, Lazerbeak, Buzzsaw, and Ratbat can talk in the comics, whereas in the cartoon, they dont.)
also, these scripts and info became the basis for both the toy tech specs and the animation personality "bible".. Budansky was responsible for the American Transformers similarly the WQay Larry Hama was responsible for G.I.Joe.

3) the point where the cartoon swered was the enter the dinobot episode. where the origins changed, and from that point, the cartoon began creating their own stories. and things got really complicated with the Comics Generation 2 comics, and the different "universes" of Car Robots/ Robots in Disguise, The continuation of the Gen 1 story with Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory, and Armada/ Energon/ Cybertron storylines.


Dark Fin "Sprinkler of Fixins"
""Freedom of speech doesn't protect speech that you like, freedom of speech protects speech that you hate."
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

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BanesCurse  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: ... 
Posted on: August 11, 2006 - 11:08:57 PM




3) the point where the cartoon swered was the enter the dinobot episode. where the origins changed, and from that point, the cartoon began creating their own stories. and things got really complicated with the Comics Generation 2 comics, and the different "universes" of Car Robots/ Robots in Disguise, The continuation of the Gen 1 story with Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory, and Armada/ Energon/ Cybertron storylines.

First off KoP, im NOT debating against you.
Secondly, Its funny you mention that, since its common belief that there is only 1 Unicron, and that he travels from Universe to Universe.
That being said, you can take any Unicron from any series and use it as referance to the actual size of Unicron.

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Nicholos Caudillo  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Huh!! one Unicron? 
Posted on: August 11, 2006 - 11:16:55 PM

Then that would mean that the Armada Megatron killed the G1 Megatron(Galvatron)! Bane Curse please elaborate on this.

"It shall be as you leave it." Shockwave to Megatron
"Something stinks around here. And I intend to find out!" Leonard to Emerson before the Pioneer mission launch.
D.O.L.

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BanesCurse  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: ... 
Posted on: August 12, 2006 - 11:29:22 AM



Not a Transformer fan, huh NC?

Well, lets break it down simply for you.
G1 is a reimagined version of Fight: Super Robot Life. RID, Armada, Energon and Cybertron are remakes of the reimagined G1 from the original F:SRL.
Now that your confused, here's the logic:
Each event surrounding Unicron from the start of his G1 TransFormers appearance has entailed certain events. From the comics, this is easier to explain. As you've already stated, Unicron brought in Galvatron from another Universe to kill a Megatron he wanted dead. This was not the actual G1 Galvatron, but a next-door Dimensional naighbour of the G1 Universe where Unicron won.
Also, Each time Unicron appears in a Universe, he changes his tactics when he comes into contact with Cybertronian lifeforms. Although, each time his intenions are the same...the Destruction of Cybertron.

So, since Unicron DOES skip through multiple Universe's (as established in the comics which you yourself pointed out when he brang an alternate G1 Galvatron to another Universe), His size is always the same since he's always the same being. Just like Primus.
Only 1 Unicron in all the Universe's.
Only 1 Primus in all the Universe's.

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Nicholos Caudillo  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Actually 
Posted on: August 12, 2006 - 7:27:15 PM

Yes I am, just an avid G1 fan. I love the characterizations of the original series, especially Shockwave, old Megs, Optimus and their respective groups. It was also one of the few shows at the time that gave the 'villians' more dimension. After all it was Megatron who was concerned for Cybertron in"more than meets the eye" than Optimus. Although there were alot of sloppy episodes, it generally made you feel concern for the robots in disguise.
I watched Beast Wars intently, hoping to see the real Megatron come alive during the BW 3rd season, time travel should have consequences. And started to watch Beast Machines but was put off by the Organic origins balooney they tried to pull on Cybertron.
RID was too kid intended for my taste and had way too much "special move" shout outs for my taste, Didn't bother with Armada or its sequels. As I stated in an eariler debate I have contributed to a G1 fanzine called Conquest and am fairly well versed in G1 series lore, but not the comics (couldn't collect them) until the Dreamwave stuff caught my eye and I got an Armada comic by mistake. I'm currently geting the IDW stuff and got most of the Dreamwave G1 (G 0) related comics.
Tell me more.

"It shall be as you leave it." Shockwave to Megatron
"Something stinks around here. And I intend to find out!" Leonard to Emerson before the Pioneer mission launch.
D.O.L.

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Nicholos Caudillo  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: God 
Posted on: August 12, 2006 - 7:28:18 PM

MY TYPING SUCKS!!

"It shall be as you leave it." Shockwave to Megatron
"Something stinks around here. And I intend to find out!" Leonard to Emerson before the Pioneer mission launch.
D.O.L.
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