Robotech - The Official Headquarters of the Robotech Universe!
The Macross SagaThe Robotech MastersThe New GenerationThe Shadow Chroniclescoming soon
NEWS
COMMUNITY
INFOPEDIA
GALLERY
STORE
SEARCH


RDF MEMBER
JOIN NOW
Forgot your Password?

RT Soundtracks
New Tunes!


Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles movie
On Blu-Ray & DVD


faqs
Community » Forums » Hardcore Robotechnology » Discussion Thread

Topic Author

Discussion Topic

mars2172  
Rank: Master Sergeant

Subject: Thinking caps - pros & cons 
Started on: March 23, 2012 - 12:06:10 PM

This is an argument for the pros & cons for the possible usage of thinking caps in robotech mecha. This is not intended to be a debate upon whether or not thinking caps actually (or should) exist in the RT universe.

Putting that issue aside, hypothetically, if thinking caps were in use, what would be the pros and cons of using such a system?

Thoughts?

Nothing extraneous in mind or body
Return to Message Index Report a problem

Member

Response 1 of 14 

RESCUE-1  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Pro Thinking Cap 
Posted on: March 23, 2012 - 5:02:05 PM

I tend to think that any technology that is tested ,and indeed having had the bugs worked out would be advantageous to any type of military technology. In the arena of of the VF Pilot's helmets (Thinking Caps) this is very important indeed,especially as their is a type of symbiosis there between the pilot and his veritech. Destroid pilots wear a similar helmet also. The need of quick reflexes, and and deed the the quick synaptic refleses/pulses would be needed for either machine is crucial. The only concern I have would be a bio-feedback shock, but as I said if this was one of the bugs/glitches and it was worked out I would be good to go.

RESCUE-1 has returned,as has the dreaded VF-72nd "HIGHLANDERS" RESCUE SQDRN. Immortales Animus curro solvo Get out of my skies scumbag!! The skies like our world belong to us !!

Member

Response 

relak  
Rank: Sergeant

Subject: ... 
Posted on: March 23, 2012 - 6:18:56 PM

Pros are definitely faster reaction time and better controls over the machine itself since instead of switches and levers, you just think and the machine does what you think.

The downside is that its kinda "all your eggs in one basket".

If a lucky shot fries some of the connecting circuitry between the thinking cap and the machine, you're a sitting duck

Member

Response 

BlaqChaos  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: Cons 
Posted on: March 23, 2012 - 7:31:23 PM

Distractions or surprises or anything making you loose focus even for an instant can be especially dangerous.

Unless hardwired, it is vulnerable to outside interference.

More expensive to produce.

Potentially more time consuming and expensive to teach.

"Nothing’s difficult, everything’s a challenge. Through adversity to the stars. To the last plane, to the last bullet to the last men to the last minute, we fight! We fight!! We fight!!! WE FIGHT!! WE FIGHT!!!"

Member

Response 

rhade  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: this is an old discussion 
Posted on: March 24, 2012 - 6:36:01 AM

No offense, but mars2172 you might want to look at a few old discussions about the thinking caps for more insight. In the mean time, let me see if I can paraphrase the old debate;

Pros:
Better fine control of the mecha
Faster responses to control
More precise motor control
Reduce the number of controls in the cockpit

Cons;
Increased complexity
Increase needed maintenance due to increased complexity
Reduce reliability due to increased complexity
Increased vonerability due to extra complexity
Slow to readjust for additional pilots (brain patterns do vary and are as unique as finger prints)
Increased risk to pilot (due in part to increased vonerability and in part to potential hazard of feed back when damaged - the connection must be two way, after all, to effective)
Potential for cross interaction with other parties in cockpit
Unnecessary due to current technology available
Reduce functionality should helmet not be available or damaged.
Pilots becoming dependent on the technology and, therefor reduce pilot affectiveness.

I am sure I forgot a few, but I hit the major highlights.

- 85ER -
MEMBER OF D.O.M.A.D.
CAG OF THE D.O.L.

- Carl Macek, to the stars and beyond time, you are not forgotten -

Member

Response 

mars2172  
Rank: Master Sergeant

Subject: ........ 
Posted on: March 24, 2012 - 5:50:16 PM

Any old discussions I've searched for have related to whether the thinking caps should exist as part of the RT universe or not. I don't want to argue that anymore. I just wanted to see what were some of the advantages and disadvantages of the system would be.

Although aome of those disadvantages you've listed are technical and robotechnology could help resolve or lessen those difficulties.

I know, I know, novel thinking, but hey, had to mention it.

Nothing extraneous in mind or body

Member

Response 

rhade  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: mars2172 
Posted on: March 24, 2012 - 6:01:24 PM

All of those old debates, over whether "thinking caps" should be canon also included the viability of "thinking caps" as well as the pros & cons of the idea.

- 85ER -
MEMBER OF D.O.M.A.D.
CAG OF THE D.O.L.

- Carl Macek, to the stars and beyond time, you are not forgotten -

Member

Response 

renegadeleader  
Rank: Lieutenant

Subject: allright 
Posted on: March 26, 2012 - 10:36:02 PM

We've got cars now that parallel park on their own all without the "miracle of robotechnology" so why is so hard to believe a mecha can't change on its own without me having to think the transformation through in my head.

Also while not canon macross plus shows a pretty reason why thinking caps are a bad idea. The human mind tends to wander and not stay focused on one exact thing and the cap might read the wrong intent and react to it. Guld in the middle of rescuing Isamu has a flashback to a previous encounter and decides he wishes Isamu would just die. The Valk interperts that thought and slams Isamu's plane into the ground.
The last thing I would want to happen is if I'm in the cockpit and not liking my commander I think to my self he needs to be shot only to have the thinking cap follow through on my thinking and blow him away.

The mind is a dangerous thing and we often think things we wouldn't do, what safe guards does a thinking cap have? It would be almost impossible for it to tell intent, without having a warning message pop up every thought like a windows OS "are you sure you want to do this?" Etc.

Chalmers: Okay, what did you do to this?
Wolff: Emergency repair procedure number one.
Chalmers: You kicked it?

"The gutter in here is wide and deep... and all seem to be in it..."-HT

Member

Response 

darthsylver  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: RE: 
Posted on: March 27, 2012 - 1:20:54 AM
Edited on: March 27, 2012 - 1:23:51 AM

Well the biggest thing I can think of is balance.

Not exactly sure how the gyroscope of the mech works, but in Battletech the mech relied on the human mind to try and keep it upright after it was hit with a missile, or bullet (or any other force).

While not in combat the helmet was not strictly required as there was little to no stress on the balance of the mech, but in combat the instinctual reactions of the human pilot to being hit helped keep the mech upright.

Now I know this isn't BT but that seemed like a pretty big factor in my book.


I will admit the whole, "thinking the mech through the transformation process" is really wonky, especially as Rick had not clue there even was a "Battloid" mode and his fighter transformed fine. Now this might be attributed to the fact that it appeared to be a training variant so that might account for it.

If you're not living on the edge then you're just taking up space.

Member

Response 

jaesonk  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Macross Plus 
Posted on: April 9, 2012 - 11:53:13 AM

In "Macross Plus", they feature two aircraft designs battling it out to win the military contract. One is mechanically controlled and the other employs a "thinking cap" control system.

In "Macross 7", learn to fly your valkyrie with your Guitar Hero controller instead of a joystick.

In "Macross Frontier", you have more thought controls featured in the VF-27.

Member

Response 

rhade  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: jasonk 
Posted on: April 9, 2012 - 9:48:17 PM

The problem is that nothing from Macross relivant when applied to Robotech. Also, there are no mecha in Frontier that are thought controled. The mecha in Frontier respond to the "flight armor" worn by the pilots. The only exception was Bera's fighter and that still isn't thought control, that was cybernetic implants and and virtual reality mixed. Cybernetic esentually make the air craft part of your body. It doesn't repond to thought, per say, but nuerostimulia that would normally be directed to muscles to move parts of your body. Not quite the same, though admittedly, similar. It requires less concentration and is actually more responsive then the idea of "thinking caps"

- 85ER -
MEMBER OF D.O.M.A.D.
CAG OF THE D.O.L.

- Carl Macek, to the stars and beyond time, you are not forgotten -

Member

Response 

jaesonk  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Of course you'd point out that Macross isn't relevant...-_- 
Posted on: April 11, 2012 - 2:34:27 PM

But to an extent it is. Macross creators have demonstrated thinking along the lines of thought controlled craft. And Robotech is derived from Macross (the protoculture). I think that opens a door of legitimacy for the possibility of it in Robotech flight helmets. Perhaps a primitive/prototype form augmenting the manual control system (similar to Firefox).

Thought control isn't presented in the original Robotech episodes but I don't think it would be in conflict with what we see. Sprinkle in a few new lines of dialog and voila it's canon

Or just leave it alone, purely levers, pedals, buttons, etc.

Various descriptions I've read about the VF-27 describe it as using a "brain wave control system". Similar enough.

Member

Response 

RESCUE-1  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Fire Fox!! Dude that brings me back 
Posted on: April 13, 2012 - 5:33:48 PM

That movie takes me back alright,saw it day one actually.The interphasing of man and mecha or man and machine Definitely holds water,and man you can definitely put Fire Fox RTMS,and of course MACROSS all on this platform most definitely. Have a great afternoon Jaeson K.

RESCUE-1

RESCUE-1 has returned,as has the dreaded VF-72nd "HIGHLANDERS" RESCUE SQDRN. Immortales Animus curro solvo Get out of my skies scumbag!! The skies like our world belong to us !!

Member

Response 

rhade  
Rank: Master Chief Sgt

Subject: jasonk 
Posted on: April 13, 2012 - 8:32:04 PM

Actually, Macross is irrelivant to Robotech... even thing like "protoculture" bear no resemblence between the two. In Robotech, protoculture is an alien power source. In Macross, protoculture is an alien race that is a common ancestor to humans and zentradi and was wiped out centuries ago in a war with the supervision army. The truth is, your statement shows how little you actually know about either Robotech or Macross.

Now, as to canon and "thinking caps" we have a direct contradiction that clearly rules OUT "thinking caps." That contradiction being the explination Roy gives Rick of the flight controls. Hence, there is no way to even write them into the existing canon.

Lastly, practicality of use is a major draw back. Again, that issue has been covered so many times, one just needs to review past threads. As such, I feel no need to repeat a hugely long list, of reasons, why the thinking caps are a bad idea that doesn work in Robotech. I will simply say, again, that anyone can look up the old threads and read for themselves. This is an old debate.

- 85ER -
MEMBER OF D.O.M.A.D.
CAG OF THE D.O.L.

- Carl Macek, to the stars and beyond time, you are not forgotten -

Member

Response 

jaesonk  
Rank: Corporal

Subject: Meh 
Posted on: April 18, 2012 - 1:35:51 PM

Thanks for the obvious explanation of Robotech & Macross differences that demonstrate your own assumptions & ignorance of what I know or don't know about Robotech & Macross. It's always fun.

Roy's simplified explanation lends support for mechanical-only manipulation but doesn't rule out the possibility of expanded/alternative control methods. Roy recommends using guardian mode to Rick because it's control is more in line with something Rick is familiar with. Rick can fly a traditional airplane, that's what he understands. So Roy talks him through it from that starting point. Further explanation introducing thought control could be added at any later point.

"Thinking Caps" may never be part of Robotech but they don't necessarily conflict with Robotech.
Return to Message Index Report a problem


By using this Web site, you are agreeing to the Terms of Use.
Privacy Policy | Contact Us | About Robotech.com

©1985-2012 Harmony Gold USA, Inc. All rights reserved.